Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 10-05-2012, 10:10 AM

This has been perplexing me for quite sometime. The sect is described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naassenes. It has always been noted that Irenaeus's description of the Ophites (= snakes) bears some relation to the sect. It was presumed that Naas went back to nachash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(Bible) but the etymology has problems. Today the solution hit me. The name goes back to another Hebrew term used side by side with nachash in Numbers 21:9 - nas (nes) = 'pole,' 'standard' or staff. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A0%D7%A1

The name is associated with snakes only because of the use of the terms side by side in Numbers 21:9:

Quote:

And Moses made a serpent of brass and put it upon a pole and it came to pass that if a serpent had bitten any man when he beheld the serpent of brass he lived

The question that started this investigation was what was the original Aramaic word for 'cross'? If nas was the original term for cross look how many passages in the OT support the significance of that object:

Quote:

And Moses built an altar and called the name of it Yahweh is my pole/standard (yhwhnissi) [Ex 17:15]

Thus saith the Lord GOD Behold I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles and set up my standard to the people and they shall bring thy sons in their arms and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders [Is 49:22]

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse which shall stand for an ensign of the people to it shall the Gentiles seek and his rest shall be glorious [Is 11:10]

And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign saith the LORD whose fire is in Zion and his furnace in Jerusalem [Is 31:9]

stephan huller · 10-05-2012, 11:04 AM

We have to remember the context of Semitic Christianity. There seems to be evidence that 'Jewish Christianity' in some form denied Jesus's Cross. I forget the sources here but the notion seems to be reflected in the writings of Paul (1 Corinthians chapter 1 for instance). This pervaded down to Islamic times where orthodoxy confirmed the idea that Jesus was never crucified - the claim is written off as either an invention of Paul or the European Church.

Iskander · 10-05-2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:

what was the original Aramaic word for 'cross'?

Aramaic Lexicon and Concordance

Lexicon
Word: 0bylcl
Lexeme: 0bylc
Root: Blc
Word Number: 17784
Meaning: cross
http://www.peshitta.org/

stephan huller · 10-05-2012, 11:18 AM

Albert van der Heide has an interesting article on the rabbinic connection between trial (Aram nissa) and the Hebrew nes (pole):

Quote:

Thus, as regards the meaning of the verb nissa, the Rabbis left their medieval successors two different and contrasting messages: Mssa is synonymous with bahan but it has to be derived from nes.

This is extremely significant to the theology of the cross I think because nissa (tested) and nes (sign, pole) are central to Christian thinking. Give me a few minutes to think about all of this.

stephan huller · 10-05-2012, 11:21 AM

That's Syriac. It derives from a common Semitic verb that means 'to impale, crucify' but as far as I know it was never used as a noun in Jewish Aramaic.

Sheshbazzar · 10-05-2012, 11:22 AM

The Hebrew of the OT is not 'Aramaic' and Aramaic words are not Hebrew.

The old shiny brass 'snake-on-a-stake' for 'deliverance', sacred 'pole' †cult has hung around for a long, long time.
Go into any Catholic Church and you will be able gaze upon the brass 'Serpent' that is hung on a pole.
Perhaps it will deliver you. More likely it will be the Nehushtan that will damn you.

'And the people bowed and prayed, To the neon god they made....'

.

stephan huller · 10-05-2012, 11:50 AM

But the question was with regards to what word Jewish contemporaries would use to refer to 'the cross.' Hebrew was not the language of Jews living in Palestine.

Sheshbazzar · 10-05-2012, 11:57 AM

No. but in matters of Scripture and of religion, then as now the Hebrew of the Tanaka text was the highest standard and final word.
Jewish contemporaries speaking in other languages (Aramaic and Syriac were not the only languages spoken among contemporary Jews even then) could have used many different words culled from other languages, even as now.

The object and symbol being mentioned is the same irregardless of what 'goyim' appellation might, at any time or place, be applied to it.

sotto voce · 10-05-2012, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But the question was with regards to what word Jewish contemporaries would use to refer to 'the cross.' Hebrew was not the language of Jews living in Palestine.

Greek was.

stephan huller · 10-05-2012, 12:47 PM

greek was not commonly used by jews in Palestine at the time. just educated jews like justus and marcus agrippa. even josephus couldnt function properly in the tongue of Javan

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10-05-2012, 11:04 AM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	We have to remember the context of Semitic Christianity. There seems to be evidence that 'Jewish Christianity' in some form denied Jesus's Cross. I forget the sources here but the notion seems to be reflected in the writings of Paul (1 Corinthians chapter 1 for instance). This pervaded down to Islamic times where orthodoxy confirmed the idea that Jesus was never crucified - the claim is written off as either an invention of Paul or the European Church.

10-05-2012, 11:21 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That's Syriac. It derives from a common Semitic verb that means 'to impale, crucify' but as far as I know it was never used as a noun in Jewish Aramaic.

10-05-2012, 11:22 AM	#6
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The Hebrew of the OT is not 'Aramaic' and Aramaic words are not Hebrew. The old shiny brass 'snake-on-a-stake' for 'deliverance', sacred 'pole' †cult has hung around for a long, long time. Go into any Catholic Church and you will be able gaze upon the brass 'Serpent' that is hung on a pole. Perhaps it will deliver you. More likely it will be the Nehushtan that will damn you. 'And the people bowed and prayed, To the neon god they made....' .

10-05-2012, 11:50 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But the question was with regards to what word Jewish contemporaries would use to refer to 'the cross.' Hebrew was not the language of Jews living in Palestine.

10-05-2012, 11:57 AM	#8
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	No. but in matters of Scripture and of religion, then as now the Hebrew of the Tanaka text was the highest standard and final word. Jewish contemporaries speaking in other languages (Aramaic and Syriac were not the only languages spoken among contemporary Jews even then) could have used many different words culled from other languages, even as now. The object and symbol being mentioned is the same irregardless of what 'goyim' appellation might, at any time or place, be applied to it.

10-05-2012, 12:47 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	greek was not commonly used by jews in Palestine at the time. just educated jews like justus and marcus agrippa. even josephus couldnt function properly in the tongue of Javan

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