aa5874

In "Against Marcion" under the name of Tertullian, an author claimed Marcion mutilated gLuke and the Pauline Epistles.

However, the same writer would also put forward the beliefs of Marcion which show quite clearly that Marcion Christ was NOT at all compatible with gLuke or the Pauline writings.

The Jesus in gLuke was the Child or offspring of a Ghost of God and still a man who was born without a human father.

The Christ of Marcion was a phantom only APPEARING to be like human but was ONLY Divine.

So immediately Marcion did not need the birth narrative of gLuke. He did not need the Holy Ghost to impregnate Mary with a Holy thing.

Now, since Marcion's Christ had NO BLOOD then he could not have been a SACRIFICE or the sacrificial Lamb of God.

Examine these words found in "Against Marcion" 4.40

Marcion did NOT need gLuke at ALL. Marcion's Jesus could NOT shed his blood for the SINS of mankind.

Now, in the Pauline writings these writers constantly claimed Jesus did DIE and was RAISED from the dead.

Jesus needed a body to die but Marcion's Christ had NO BODY. It was a Phantom.

And not only does Jesus need a body to die, he also needs a body to be CRUCIFIED. A Phantom cannot be crucified.

And the writer of "Against Marcion" will CLEARLY confirm that it was believed in antiquity that without a body of flesh there can be no death and hence NO resurrection.

"Against Marcion" 3.8 It is clear that the NEW work of "Against Marcion" is a work of FICTION since the author's own words show that Marcion's Christ is totally incompatible with gLuke and the Pauline writings.

It appears that an apologetic source Hippolytus in "Refutations of All Heresies" 7.17, 7.18, 7.19 and 7.25, may be more reasonable when he CONTRADICTED "Against Marcion" and claimed that Marcion did not use the Pauline writings or gMark but that Marcion plagerised Empedocles.

And, another apologetic source, Origen in "Against Celsus" 2.27 did also tend to corroborate Hippolytus by claiming Marcion did NOT mutilate the Gospels.

Tertullian's "Against Marcion" is a work of FICTION with respect to Marcion based on apologetic sources.

ApostateAbe

Marcion plagiarized Empedocles, the Greek philosopher of six centuries previous. And Against Marcion was fiction, and you know that because of a perceived philosophical inconsistency about the nature of Jesus. Fiction--what do you mean by that? It was written for entertainment? That can't be what you mean. Well, maybe that is what you mean, I don't know.

jgreen44

Perhaps Tertullian meant that Marcion "mutilated" (i.e. re-wrote, edited) gLuke and the Pauline Epistles to portray Jesus as a bloodless, flesh-less phantom.
It would seem that at least two out of the three authors (Tertullian, Hippolytus and Origen) are lying about Marcion or unknowingly passing on misinformation.

aa5874

And that is exactly what Hippolytus and Origen contradicted. Hippolytus claimed Marcion used Empedocles and Origen claimed it was the followers of Marcion who mutilated the Gospels.
And that is exactly what is needed to make formulate a theory that "Against Marcion" by "Tertullian" is fiction.

And we not only have Hippolytus and Origen but there is also Justin Martyr who did write about Marcion and his doctrine which was nothing like the teachings of Jesus in gLuke or the revelations of Paul.

It is just plain absurd and ridiculous for "Tertullian" to claim Marcion fabricated LETTERS one hundred years later when the ORIGINAL LETTERS were supposedly circulated one hundred years earlier and the teachings of Paul was supposedly spread over the Roman Empire in the Churches where Marcion once attended.

It must be noted that the Pauline writers supposedly did PREACH to people all over the Roman Empire that Jesus was crucified, shed his blood, and was raised from the dead.

It would have far more simpler for Marcion to have used a source that ALREADY supported his beliefs. Far more simpler to use Empedocles.

People of antiquity would have known Marcion was a liar if he claimed Paul supported Docetism or Dualism.

Galatians 1.1 was supposed to have been in circulation about 100 years before Marcion.

"Against Marcion" by "Tertullian" is fiction.

dog-on

Maybe, unbeknown to Tertullian, Marcion's gospel was actually Mark and not edited Luke.

aa5874

So, "Tertullian" wrote fiction about Marcion but he just did not know. And he also claimed PAUL WROTE all the Epistles with the name Paul but he just did not know.

"Tertullian" also claimed Matthew, John, Mark and Luke wrote gospels but he just did not know.

How in the world could "Tertullian" in the 2nd century be so uninformed?

Once Marcion's Christ was not born then Marcion did not need the birth narrative in gLuke or Paul who claimed Jesus was BORN OF A WOMAN.

Marcion's Christ was NOT born of a woman.

Once Marcion's Christ had NO BLOOD then Marcion's Christ could not have SHED his blood as a SACRIFICE for the sins of mankind. Marcion did not need the crucifixion in gLuke and the Pauline writings.

Once Marcion's Christ had NO FLESH then he could NOT die or resurrect as found in gLuke and the Pauline writings.

Marcion did NOT need gLuke and the Pauline Jesus

"Tertullian" did not know what he was talking about so he wrote fiction.

Now, if "Tertullian" did present the THIRD version "Against Marcion" to the Marcionites in the 2nd century then he would have been a laughing stock, a fiction writer.

The Marcionites would have exposed "Tertullian" as a most hideous manufacturer.

"Tertullian's" THIRD version of "Against Marcion" was not written in the 2nd century and the Marcionites of the 2nd century did not see the THIRD version of "Against Marcion"

"Tertullian's" THIRD version of "Against Marcion" is so ridiculous it is like claiming that David Koresh re-wrote the Mormon Bible.

dog-on

You simply assume that Tertullian is a liar. You refuse to accept the possibility that he was misinformed.

How do you know?

Clivedurdle

Am I misunderstanding this?

The evidence of Jesus's flesh is his blood.

But his blood is part of the mass - a sacrament, a symbolic sacrifice.

Is the evidence of the real Jesus being put forward here the eucharist?

Circular?

aa5874

But, that is exactly why I NOW claim "Tertullian's " "Against Marcion" is a work of FICTION because I have taken into consideration that he may have been mis-informed and have considered that the possibility that he wrote FICTION is FAR greater.

Now, I did not blindly assume "Tertullian" wrote LIES.

Did you not see that I referred to Hippolytus, Origen and Justin Martyr!

Justin Martyr, Hippolytus and Origen all appear to CONTRADICT "Tertullian's" "Against Marcion" and "Tertullian" himself also, perhaps inadvertently, showed that it was not very likely that Marcion would have used gLuke and the Pauline writings.

From the very "Tertullian" we learn that:

1. Marcion's Christ was NOT born of a woman.

2. Marcion's Christ had NO BLOOD.

3. Marcion's Christ had NO FLESH.

4. Marcion's Christ needed FLESH to suffer.

5. Marcion's Christ needed FLESH to die.

6. Marcion's Christ need FLESH to Bodily resurrect.

7. Marcion's Christ needed BLOOD to be a SACRIFICE.

8. Marcion's Christ was NOT even the Son of the God of the Jews.

Marcion did NOT need gLuke or the Pauline writings.

"Against Marcion" is a work of FICTION.

mountainman

Of course it is since Tertullian is simply a retrojected mouthpiece of the most wretched and dishonest historian of antiquity Eusebius, who was paid in gold to lie through his teeth on behalf of his very very very very very very influential Boss .... The Lord God Caesar Constantine, the very last "Pontifex Maximus" of the Sacred Colledge of the Pontifices (ie: the Graeco-Roman priesthood and all its associated academies, such as the one to Plato).

It was an important epoch, the one in which the ancient temples of the Graeco-Roman civilisation were destroyed by the "Christian Army of Constantine" and the New testament of Christian Basilicas were erected over their foundations. Think something like "MAKEOVER" or even "BACK YARD BLITZ" - the most vavish construction project ever undertaken by a ruler in antiquity from precious stone. The Boss - Bullneck - a very rich fascist promoted the nation of christians using the high technology of literary forgery.