dongiovanni1976x

Richbee,
Almost dead center you can see the worn elongated oval of the ancient hippodrome. At far left (west) you see Alexander’s causeway leading out to the ancient island with the Sidonian harbor facing north (all with new buildings on it). On the southern coast you can see the Tyre Rest House Hotel which, Richbee, if you’d like reservations you can contact them at P.O.BOX: 140 Tyr – Lebanon Tel. (7) 742000 - 740677/8 - 345164 - (3) 356663 Fax. (7) 345163 email: info@resthouse-tyr.com.lb

I also added new info regard the latitude and longitude of TYRE in wikipedia under TYRE and info on the mainland city "USHU" for those interested in viewing.
The city is located at 35° 16' latitude and 33° 11' longitude. (Bikai, P., The Land of Tyre, in Joukowsky, M., "The Heritage of Tyre" chapter 2, 1992, p13) “The location of the city of Tyre is not in doubt, for it exists to this day on the same spot and is known as Sur.” (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p9) The name of the city means "rock".

Tyre originally consisted of two distinct urban centers, one on an island and the other on the adjacent coast (approximately 30 stadia apart or 3.5 miles according to Strabo in his Geography xvi, 2), before Alexander the Great connected the island to the coast during his siege of the city. One was a heavily fortified island city amidst the sea and the latter, originally called Ushu (later, Palaetyrus, by the Greeks) was actually more like a line of suburbs than any one city and was used primarily as a source of water and timber for the main island city. [1] Josephus even records them fighting against each other [2], although most of the time they supported one another due to the island city’s wealth from maritime trade and the mainland area’s source of timber, water and burial grounds.

Today, Tyre is the fourth largest city in Lebanon [3] and has many ancient sites for tourism and it's Roman Hippodrome was reportedly used for the film, Ben-Hur. It was added to UNESCO's World Heritage list in 1979 (Resolution 459).[4]

dongiovanni1976x

EZEKIEL’S PROPHECY IS UNSPECIFIC, INSIGNIFICANT AND WAS NEVER FULFILLED

Alexander the Great was never specified in the prophecy. And I assume that if something is not specified then it is unspecific. Therefore if you want to use Alexander in support of your argument then you must acknowledge that this prophecy is not “incredibly specific and detailed” but rather Ezekiel's prophecy is made unspecific.

In addition, due to the length of time necessary for Alexander and the Mamelukes to “fulfill your theory", you stifle this prophecy’s strength and significance. This is because that in history it is the exception, rather than the rule, that a city will never be attacked, lose prominence or suffer other difficulties etc... and what makes this prophecy significant is that it is made during the height of Tyre’s prominence and that a specified individual will bring down this great prominence (i.e. Nebuchadnezzar). Therefore you are rendering Ezekiel’s prophecy insignificant.

Pile on top of these two points is the fact that Tyre still stands to this day, as the fourth largest city in Lebanon and I could even make you resevations at the beautiful Tyrian beachside resort hotel I mentioned in the last post, this renders Ezekiel's prophecy unfulfilled.

So what are we left with: EZEKIEL’S PROPHECY REGARDING TYRE IS UNSPECIFIC, INSIGNIFICANT AND WAS NEVER FULFILLED.

Richbee

So what?

It was built long after the destruction of Old Tyre.

Why, it is a back water, and the glory that was Tyre is no more.

Keep dreamin' boyo.

Richbee

Skeptics are funny.

They will believe anything or twist the prophesy to fit their dogma of unbelief!

The city of Tyre was one of the most prominent commercial cities in the Mediterranean in ancient times.

Today, nothing of its supremacy remains.

The Judeo-Christian Scriptures predicted the desolation of Tyre: that God in His righteous judgment would destroy this city because of its people's sins against Him. The Scriptures provide significant insight into the nature of the Hebrew God, Yahweh, His attributes, and why He is to be feared and honored.

[The Kingdom of] Tyre was once the commercial center of the ancient world, a market place of nations, and a city renown for its beauty and elegance. This city was described as a very wealthy and luxurious place where commerce revolved and business flourished. In the book of Isaiah (23:8), its merchants are called princes, and its traders are designated as "the honorable of the earth." It is apparent that these individuals held tremendous status and power, and that their city was one of the most illustrious and prestigious in the known world.

As we look into the Judeo-Christian Scriptures we find that the people of Tyre became very prideful and vain. In the prophecy of Ezekiel, the Lord says, "...your heart is lifted up, and you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, in the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god" (28:2). According to the book of Ezekiel, the purpose of God's judgment was to humble the people of Tyre and to judge their wickedness. God revealed that though man can say he is a god, he is powerless against the sting of death and the righteous judgments of God.

The book of Ezekiel is dated 593 B.C. to 570 B.C., and was written by a Hebrew prophet named Ezekiel who identifies himself as "Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi." The prophesy against the city of Tyre begins in chapter 26 of this account, where Ezekiel receives a vision from God in which He reveals the destruction of Tyre because of its people's depravity. God's purpose was to humble the people of Tyre, and pronounce His judgments on those who chose to make themselves gods in their own sight. Ezekiel declares seven prophesies in chapter 26:3-21:

[verse]Ezekiel 26:3-21

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up [Prediction 1]. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock [Prediction 2]. It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea; it shall become plunder for the nations [Prediction 3]... He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you [Prediction 4]... They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will breakdown your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water [Prediction 5]... I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading of nets, and you shall never be rebuilt [Prediction 6]... I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again [Prediction 7].

[/verse]

This Prophesy must be compared to external historical accounts, and must be scrutinized for validity. Shortly after Ezekiel prophesied of God's judgment against Tyre, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon laid siege to Tyre. After a thirteen-year siege, Nebuchadnezzar broke down the city gates and found the city virtually abandoned. [Some] Most of Tyre's citizens moved to an island about one-half mile off the mainland, and there they fortified a city. Though mainland Tyre was destroyed in 573 B.C. by Nebuchadnezzar's army (Prediction 4), Tyre continued to flourish and remained a powerful city many years thereafter.

Source:: More




Moreover......

Alexander the Great came to Tyre in 333 B.C. to deny its people the use of the Persian fleet. The people of Tyre refused to allow Alexander the Great to enter into their city, an act that enraged the conqueror and compelled him to raise arms against the city. He reasoned that since Tyre dominated the seas, all of Phoenicia would be his if he conquered this illustrious city. Since Tyre had a strong naval fleet and Alexander's forces did not, his plan was to build a mole across the mainland to the island. Alexander the Great used the stones and timber of the ruined mainland Tyre, and threw these materials into the sea to create a mole and towers from which to launch an offensive (Prediction 5). As Alexander the Great led his men into battle against this city, he was able to scrounge up eighty Phoenician vessels for reinforcements. Rhodes, Soli, Mallus, Lycia, and Macedon all gave vessels to help Alexander the Great destroy Tyre along with about 4,000 Greek mercenaries (Prediction 1). It took Alexander seven months before Tyre was finally overtaken. After Tyre's defeat by Alexander, Tyrian commerce and wealth went to Alexandria.

During the Crusades the Crusaders used Tyre as a military base, and were overrun by the Muslims in 1291 A.D. The Muslims burned the houses, temples, and buildings, and utterly destroyed the city. What was once a great city became as stark as the top of a rock (Prediction 2), and today many secular scholars note that Tyre is now a place where fishermen frequently lay their nets out to dry (Prediction 3). To this day the city of Tyre has not been rebuilt, and it remains are bare rock with no ruins to mark its glorious past (Prediction 6).

dongiovanni1976x

I added this to wikipedia just for people like you who think this prophecy was directed only against the mainland city.

Ushu

Name of the ancient mainland city that supplied Tyre with water, supplies and burial grounds. Based upon the mythical figure Usoos or Ousoüs, a decendant of Genos and Genea, whose children alledgedly discovered fire as recorded by Sanchuniathon (Sankunyaton). (Bikai, Pierre, The Land of Tyre, found in chapter 2 of Martha Joukowsky’s “The Heritage of Tyre” 1992, p13)


References:

"Usoos (Ushu) took a trunk of a tree, stripped it of its branches and was the first man to dare sail in it on the sea." (Eusebius, quoting Philo of Byblos, Praeparatio Evangelica Bk I, 10, 10) Link to Pr. Ev.: [1]

“[Tyre’s] numbers swelled greatly in time of war, when residents of nearby cities on the mainland (such as Ushu) found refuge on the island.” (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p10)

“Besides the city itself, well-protected by its location on an island, the kingdom of Tyre included a strip of mainland, whose center was the town of Ushu.” (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p29)

“Ousoüs is, of course, Ushu or Uzu, the ancient name of the mainland city...During most periods, the majority of the population must have lived on the mainland, while the island area was an administrative and religious center. As an administrative center, it would have contained the palaces of the ruler and probably stations for the army as well, and as a religious center, it had temples serving the city and the region.” (Bikai, Pierre, The Land of Tyre, found in chapter 2 of Martha Joukowsky’s “The Heritage of Tyre” 1992, pp13-15)

Remarking about the many times Tyre was attacked leading up to, and including Nebuchadnezzar, Maurice Cherab, the Director general of Antiquities in Lebanon says, “If the invaders, however, sometimes succeeded in subduing the coast (i.e. Ushu), the island, which was the heart of Tyre’s maritime empire, eluded them.” (Cherab, Maurice, Tyre, trans: Afaf Rustum Chalhoub, p11)

“A wall relief at Karnak lists the cities Sethos I (or Seti I, Ramesses II’s father) conquered, among them Tyre and Ushu. Ushu appears as if it were part of the Tyrian kingdom.” (Badre, Leila, Canaanite Tyre, found in chapter 4 of Martha Joukowsky’s “The Heritage of Tyre” 1992, p 40) see also Katzenstein p 49, (both citing James B. Pritchard’s Ancient Near East in Pictures nos. 327, 331)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushu"


I would like you to go through Ezekiel 26 and tell me specifically when the pronoun refers to the mainland city and when it refers to the island city. Given the references I have cited.

dongiovanni1976x

And Tyre was still beautiful when Justin commented on it in his day...And this was nearly a thousand years after Ezekiel's prophecy....but beauty was not what was to be destroyed. I am not twisting the scriptures...Ezekiel says emphatically that Tyre would be destroyed, never rebuilt and, though sought after, lost forever- in fact, he says the waters will rise over her and since no one will know where Tyre exists they will dry nets on the bare rock amidst the sea...Yet Tyre still stands to this day- rebuilt numerous times.

dongiovanni1976x

So do you believe that the city of Tyre, in Ezekiel's day, was not located on an island?

Richbee

A problem develops for skeptics when they attempt to divide the Kingdom or city in two. What was the island, or became the island of Tyre became subject to Babylon and/or Persia, and it's mainland trade taken over. Who can deny this basic reality?

Additionally, it is pointless to debate the old Kingdom or City of Tyre while denying it's power, wealth and position as a large port city or Kingdom of International trade. Very large! HUGE in fact.

Seriously, I have no idea how skeptics can deny that Alexander the Great destroyed what little was left of the former Tyre?

Now, the most hilarious chapter in the debate is when skeptics try to pretend that "modern" Tyre in some way refutes Ezekiel.

I have observed that even the Mod' here doesn't see the facts on display through current pictures!

dongiovanni1976x

Alexander installed a king in 332, therefore it was still a kingdom. And then 700 years later, Justin commented how beautiful it was...but regardless. Alexander was never mentioned in the prophecy so you must admit that it is UNSPECIFIC. If I prophesized that an unspecified nation, will attack at an unspecified time - am I being specific?

Richbee

I don't divide the two because it doesn't matter. IMO, Ezekiel gets it correct straight from the beginning. Not only does the Kingdom fall under Babylonian and the Persian power and taxes, but the island.

Just consider the source of pervious trade, like lumber for ship building or fresh water? It was impossible for the island to remain independent from Babylon.

Follow some of the details of wealth and power and the Spirtual pride that Tyre had in the gods of Baal.

Farrel Till never addressed Ezekiel 26, 27, and 28 in total context, and in the context of History.


Ezekiel 28 (New International Version)

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre,
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "[/size]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=28&version=31