Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Susan2 · 07-08-2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

I've heard it mentioned that the total sayings of Jesus would barely fill 2 or 3 pages. Is this a correct assessment? Doesn't that seem like a really low total considering the length of his ministry and his love of lecturing?

Passing on third hand information like this can create problems. I suspect that the origin of this claim is the conclusion by the Jesus Seminar that only 18% of the words attributed to Jesus are authentic to Jesus.

We only know about what Jesus is alleged to have said, or the (short) length of his ministry, or his love of lecturing, from the gospels, which are not reliable sources of information in any case.

Does this mean that Jesus didn't say a lot, or that what he said was not memorable and most of it is lost to history? Or that the gospel writers did not construct a coherent narrative?

I didn't know that the Jesus Seminar had found proof that Jesus existed and from there found his original sayings. Perhaps you could either provide a link to their site, where they present their proof that Jesus existed, or perhaps they have that written in a book or something?

Thank you.

bacht · 07-08-2009, 12:34 PM

John 1.1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

If Jesus was the Word of God then he said all he needed to say in eternal heaven :huh:

Susan2 · 07-08-2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

There are some quotes which are kind of similar, but their outlook wasn't really very alike. Jesus almost certainly regarded Hillel as a play-actor. This may seem harsh, but Jesus was pretty harsh about that sort of thing.

I wish there were a way to make this comment a favorite. Outstanding!:thumbs:

Why say in a 39 words what can be said in one?

Quote:

Jesus was also a xenophobe. He was also completely ignorant about fig trees in winter.

--cosmic wisdom? HAH! NB

Perhaps he would reply to each his own?

Tristan Scott · 07-08-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Many of the sayings attributed to Jesus were from others. His turn the other cheek saying was from Hillel,

Really? Where does Hillel say anything of the sort?
Peter.

Hillel didn't originate the idea of the Golden Rule, I believe that was originated in the Tobit. Here is a source for Hillel's quote.

Tristan Scott · 07-08-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

in fact Jesus really appears to be parroting much of Hillel's teachings.

There are some quotes which are kind of similar, but their outlook wasn't really very alike. Jesus almost certainly regarded Hillel as a play-actor. This may seem harsh, but Jesus was pretty harsh about that sort of thing.

Peter.

I wasn't aware that Jesus ever said anything about Hillel, or is this just speculation?

No Robots · 07-08-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

I wasn't aware that Jesus ever said anything about Hillel, or is this just speculation?

Hillel was a Pharisee, and the Pharisees in general were a frequent target of Christ's criticism.

Petergdi · 07-08-2009, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

Really? Where does Hillel say anything of the sort?
Peter.

Hillel didn't originate the idea of the Golden Rule, I believe that was originated in the Tobit. Here is a source for Hillel's quote.

Um, you claimed that Hillel taught about turning the other cheek.

The Golden Rule is a general rule of conduct, many people before Jesus said something like it, although always or nearly always in the form of a negative command.

Turning the other cheek is about not resisting other people who wish to wrong you. It does not seem likely that Hillel would have said anything of that sort.

Peter.

Anat · 07-08-2009, 01:18 PM

Deleted by author.

Petergdi · 07-08-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

There are some quotes which are kind of similar, but their outlook wasn't really very alike. Jesus almost certainly regarded Hillel as a play-actor. This may seem harsh, but Jesus was pretty harsh about that sort of thing.

Peter.

I wasn't aware that Jesus ever said anything about Hillel, or is this just speculation?

AFAIK there is no writing prior to the Mishnah (c. 200 CE) that mentions Hillel by name.

Hillel was by human standards a good and wise man, but he was also what Jesus called a "play-actor." This was because Hillel found ways of excusing people from what Jesus believed God's law required.

"Turning the other cheek" seems to be a place where the teachings of Jesus are quite different from Orthodox Judaism in the school of Hillel.

Peter.

Anat · 07-08-2009, 01:28 PM

There is a tale where 2 guys have a bet where they dare one another to try to anger Hillel, so they come and very rudely ask him silly questions while he is in the midst of Shabbat preparations. He sits with them and answers very patiently, even giving up on washing his hair. While I doubt Hillel believed in turning the other cheek as a general rule, the character in this story had the temper and self-control for it if he wanted to.

Another of Hillel's famous sayings: "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" - this one works nicely in a secular humanist context.

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07-08-2009, 12:34 PM	#12
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	John 1.1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. If Jesus was the Word of God then he said all he needed to say in eternal heaven :huh:

07-08-2009, 01:18 PM	#18
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Deleted by author.

07-08-2009, 01:28 PM	#20
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	There is a tale where 2 guys have a bet where they dare one another to try to anger Hillel, so they come and very rudely ask him silly questions while he is in the midst of Shabbat preparations. He sits with them and answers very patiently, even giving up on washing his hair. While I doubt Hillel believed in turning the other cheek as a general rule, the character in this story had the temper and self-control for it if he wanted to. Another of Hillel's famous sayings: "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" - this one works nicely in a secular humanist context.

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