Diogenes the Cynic

Heads up to Twin Cities residents out there. Robert M. Price will be the guest on KTFN AM 950's "Atheists Talk" on sunday, August 1 at 9:00 AM (CDT) discussing his book, The Case Against The Case forChrist (a refutation of Strobel). Should be interesting.

Russellonius

Hey, that's where I live. Will he be making any public appearances?

Diogenes the Cynic

I don't think so, unfortunately.

popgoestheweasel

I live here. I might actually go there. Price is great.

mountainman

So what happened?

Toto

A podcast is available

mountainman

Thanks Toto - I had given up trying to find it.

mountainman

My hasty notes

(excuse typos)



Robert Price interviewed by Scott Loman .....

August 1, 2010


"The Case against the Case for Christ"

Against "Reverend Strobels"

Could this bible be true?
Spin doctors for the faiht.
Lying and false advertising


Chapter 1 - EYE WITNESS EVIDENCE

No reason to think they are eye witness docs.
Would be handy for defenders of the faith if they were.
Line-ups, eyewitness testimony is sometimes erroneous.

Books which appeared out of nowhere
that are filled with stories
analogous to other ancient myths
and saying that are so close to those
of the ancient stoics, cynics, rabbis
that its kind of up in the air where they came from.

They gratuitously assume these imply an "JHJ".

Most NT scholars are apologists in one way or another.
This is no criticism.
But they unthinkingly accept Mark (earlist gospel) written around 70 CE.
Attempt to make it as early as possible,

Perhaps then may include and represent reliable testimony,

Mark - second coming of Christ.
13 - This gen will not pass until ...
9 - They are some standing here who will not taste death ...

The generation died.
Prediction of 2nd coming.

Few dicsiples go up mt to se him transformed.

Noone lived to see it.

COMING OF THE K OF GOD?

Transfiguration?

The Gospel will be preached all over the world then the K will come ..

All within the earliest gospel

It seems inconceivale written even in the 1st CE


136 CE according to Detering.(Roman defeat of Jewish rebels).

No quotes from any gospels until late 2nd CE writers.


MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE

"More copies of bible preserved in monasteries".

Fodder for testual criticism
Can weed out copy errors.
Moot since copies so late.
Further back scribes took more liberties to change things.

Closer we get to original the more liberties taken.
Writing of NT originals - one century after? (tunel eriod)

Earliest copies rounded up and destroyed and
replaced with an official orthodox text subst.

Constantine eliminated the gnostoc books.
Sent out 50 pulpit bibles ...

Earliest are gone ...

Interesting readings vary in Syriac etc.

****
We have no ms evidence and have to speculate.
We do not have the originals.
Apologists assume the copies match these "originals".

---BREAK 2

1998 (Strobel book) - Jesus realy existed and resurrected.
Inaccuracies listed by Robert Price.

WEBSITE = robertmprice.mindvendor.com

******

EXTRA BIBLICAL EVIDENCE for the existence of JESUS/


There are huge problems with the HJ.

TF: "obvious interpolation"
60 years after supposed death of Jesus.

We do have letters about Probius the Cynic.
We do have letters mentioning Apolloonius to Tyana.

We do not have any corroborating surviving evidence.

No evidence is no evidence.

Even if we assume TF and Tacitus "true accounts"
these authors were just reporting "Christian hearsay".


ARCHAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

Existence of Nazareth:

Recent research refutes - no archaeologist for OT events
Now moving into NHT

Rene Salm - Nazareth town did not exist 1st century.
Repopulated 50 CE.
Member of Nazareon sect?
Gospels imply Nazareth - because the town existed when the gospel writers wrote.

No Galilaen synogues - anachronistic and unhistorical.


TWO Bethlehem

Galilee
Judaea (south) --- prphecy in OT specifies this.


JESUS SEMINAR
Marginised by apologists and mainstream critics.

1982 - Funk and Croissant

11 years result --
18% sayings and stories very likely went back to HJ
(or at least there was no good argument that they didn't)
--- Price thinks this last bit revealing.

Altogether too optimistic.
Everytng can be dismissed as tendition and anachronistic.
Insufficiently critical.

Skepticism is not forgiven by apologists.

Mark dresses up Psalms 22.
Implies no historical memory.


---- BREAK 3

How is it possible that this event would not have attracted all
types of literary accounts.

MATH --- calls material from Zac and Solomon.

No historical memory suggests mythical accounts.

Hard to place the gospels in history.


Pontius Pilate - Barabas known killer and insurrectionist.
absurd that he would negotiate with the mob.

"Jesus story is a float in mythology rather than history"

Each of the gosples vary on

"Who put Jesus to death"
Ambiguity ... major event?
Herod?

LUKE: 2 versions of the passion
MARK: Different passion narratives together.

PAUL: super human beings fallen angels Archons principlalities and powers took JC.

Why the Missing body?

Some argue that the resurrection event is proved by the empty tomb.
You cant defend one piece of the story by another piece of the story.
Its like saying the emerald city must exist
otherwise where does the yellow brick road go?

No reason to believe it.
Simply a story?