Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Yahweh · 10-31-2004, 09:08 PM

Perhaps this kind of thread has been done before, but what does it mean to say "Jesus Christ died for my sins"?

According to my very own Bible with complementary apologetics:

Quote:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The entire gospel comes to a focus in this verse [John 3:16]. God's love is not static or self-centered [ What? He wants you to die in a fire if you dont do everything he says. Nevermind, thats besides the point. ]; it reaches out and draws others in. Here God sets the pattern of true love, the basis for all love relationships - when you love someone dearly, you are willing to give freely to the point of self-sacrifice. God paid dearly with the life of his Son, the highest price he could pay. Jesus accepted our punishment, paid the price for our sins, and then offered us the new life that he had bought for us. When we share the Gospel with others, our love must be like Jesus' - willingly giving up our own comfort and security so that others might join us in recieving God's love.

I get many different answers in this single paragraph:
* Apparently, sins existed prior to the life of Jesus Christ. They continue to exist until they are repaid in blood. I find that to be incredibly obscene for the reasons of its practical application: This kind of logic allows for the act of raping women to be forgiven by the killing of their sons, its simply idiotic. (There is some kind of esoteric belief in a "conservation of sin and pain" that I think runs behind this interpretation.)

* Apparently, Jesus died to show his love for me. I think that is very nice, but its not very smart and not very profound. Many hundreds of thousands of people died so that I could vote, work in hospitible conditions for reasonable pay, own a home, and have the freedom of my own mind and independent thoughts (which strangely enough, the bible so adamently warns against).

* Apparently, Jesus died so that I could go to Heaven. How did he do that, and why isnt there any other way? I dont think its terribly naive for me to simply say "I dont get it", I dont see the the logic behind "Jesus died a violent death therefore I get eternal life" (the technical term for this is called "non sequitor").

I believe those three interpretations will cover most of what I expect to find on any typical apologetics encyclopedia.

Apparently I'm just not "getting" the most significant events and verses which ground Christianity. And if the subtle tounge-in-cheek of that doesnt stick out immediately, maybe a good thread exposing the absurdity and possibly the humor behind a favorite verse in the bible, John 3:16, will do.

Doc B · 10-31-2004, 09:41 PM

I've never understood why God needs something to die for my sins. I don't really get why God requires sins to be punished at all. Couldn't he just fix me without killing anything? He is God, after all. Why is God such a sadist?

Chili · 10-31-2004, 09:46 PM

You are correct, it is wishful thinking for those who believe it and find comfort in it. Worse yet, it ends their search for destiny in thinking that they have found it . . . just after he told us that "flesh begets flesh."

Vorkosigan · 10-31-2004, 09:54 PM

Off to GRD..........

Alan N · 11-01-2004, 07:50 AM

Most christians I know view jesus' death as the "sold" stamp on the transaction of 'justification'. It's god saying "transaction complete". Like Richard Price says, if it was supposed to work, why didn't it? Why does it require subsequent belief to consumate the deal? His death means jack until the believer believes in it. It's simply a gesture of 'good faith'. You know, when I want to tell my boys how much I love them, how I'll always love them, I tend to say "I love you" and give them a hug. Call me crazy, but I tend to refrain from blood sacrifice as a gesture of love.

Llyricist · 11-01-2004, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahweh's Bible

God paid dearly with the life of his Son, the highest price he could pay.

This is such incredible, transparent Bullshit. It amazes me that any author could write that with "a straight pen"

Where did Jesus go after he was crucified?...right back to his father's side. So what did God "pay" with? Jesus' mortal life? 30 years or so separated from his son out of an eternity? hello? The character God didn't pay anything at all in that sick, warped story that is Christianity.

muidiri · 11-01-2004, 10:23 AM

:rolling:

Y'all are some funny folks sometimes!

I keep running into the argument that jesus made the sacrifice because humans are inherently evil and are always sinners, and that we can't fix ourselves. We have to enslave ourselves to some immoral, petty, mercurial god to be able to "fix" our problems. The whole jesus death thing is such a load of contradictory DEPRESSING pessimistic hogwash... no wait - I take that back. It would taint my hog!

They've made a martyr of a crazy man. He showed up, gave a good charismatic speech about how he was the son of god.. and then died violently. Somehow this makes him extra cool. And gives people the right to harass anyone who doesn't believe that their delusion is the only way to be safe from hell!

ZFT25 · 11-01-2004, 02:01 PM

I would have to agree with everyone above. Basically, if God is so powerful, it wasn't necessary for Jesus to die for our sins. Why didn't he use that power to correct our sins, or even to prevent us from sinning again by placing this thought in our mind? It's like the flood; God flooded the Earth because it had gone bad, essentially. If he's God, then why didn't he fix the Earth? Perhaps I'm not capturing any lessons projected from all this, but it all seems to make little sense.

Rational BAC · 11-01-2004, 02:27 PM

Jesus probably did not die for any kind of sin---although that is debateable---, but most certainly He did not die for the original kind.

The idea of original sin is the most ludicrous thing this excellent Christian has ever pondered. Got to be a joke of some kind, right?

This idea of dying for sin, being a sacrificial lamb for all of mankind was just made up stuff, by those who never knew Jesus, or way after the fact.

It is easy to make up stuff. So much of the Bible is just made up stuff.

Read the unfortunately very innaccurate Gospels and forget Paul and forget the committee decisions of the 4th century----------and there is no real basis for the idea that Jesus died as a sacrifice for the sin of mankind.

I might give you the idea that Jesus died as a sacrifice for our personal sins in our personal lifetimes-------but even that is debateable.

Why was Jesus (the God) crucified and resurrected? It is only you and you alone and me and me alone who can determine that. Your guess is as good as mine.

And your and my guess is just as valid as all the guessing about this subject that has gone on for 2000 years.

Bright Life · 11-01-2004, 03:24 PM

It's a question of faith, where faith equals blind acceptance. If one were to look at the whole thing as an observer, rather than a member of the practicing culture, I imagine it would be easier to explain. People accept this story, because they are told to accept it. There are some who choose to analyze this problem. Many become atheists.

11-01-2004, 07:50 AM	#5
Alan N Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 68	Transaction Most christians I know view jesus' death as the "sold" stamp on the transaction of 'justification'. It's god saying "transaction complete". Like Richard Price says, if it was supposed to work, why didn't it? Why does it require subsequent belief to consumate the deal? His death means jack until the believer believes in it. It's simply a gesture of 'good faith'. You know, when I want to tell my boys how much I love them, how I'll always love them, I tend to say "I love you" and give them a hug. Call me crazy, but I tend to refrain from blood sacrifice as a gesture of love.

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10-31-2004, 09:41 PM	#2
Doc B Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 51	I've never understood why God needs something to die for my sins. I don't really get why God requires sins to be punished at all. Couldn't he just fix me without killing anything? He is God, after all. Why is God such a sadist?

10-31-2004, 09:46 PM	#3
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	You are correct, it is wishful thinking for those who believe it and find comfort in it. Worse yet, it ends their search for destiny in thinking that they have found it . . . just after he told us that "flesh begets flesh."

10-31-2004, 09:54 PM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Off to GRD..........

11-01-2004, 10:23 AM	#7
muidiri Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 10,066	:rolling: Y'all are some funny folks sometimes! I keep running into the argument that jesus made the sacrifice because humans are inherently evil and are always sinners, and that we can't fix ourselves. We have to enslave ourselves to some immoral, petty, mercurial god to be able to "fix" our problems. The whole jesus death thing is such a load of contradictory DEPRESSING pessimistic hogwash... no wait - I take that back. It would taint my hog! They've made a martyr of a crazy man. He showed up, gave a good charismatic speech about how he was the son of god.. and then died violently. Somehow this makes him extra cool. And gives people the right to harass anyone who doesn't believe that their delusion is the only way to be safe from hell!

11-01-2004, 02:01 PM	#8
ZFT25 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 75	I would have to agree with everyone above. Basically, if God is so powerful, it wasn't necessary for Jesus to die for our sins. Why didn't he use that power to correct our sins, or even to prevent us from sinning again by placing this thought in our mind? It's like the flood; God flooded the Earth because it had gone bad, essentially. If he's God, then why didn't he fix the Earth? Perhaps I'm not capturing any lessons projected from all this, but it all seems to make little sense.

11-01-2004, 02:27 PM	#9
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Jesus probably did not die for any kind of sin---although that is debateable---, but most certainly He did not die for the original kind. The idea of original sin is the most ludicrous thing this excellent Christian has ever pondered. Got to be a joke of some kind, right? This idea of dying for sin, being a sacrificial lamb for all of mankind was just made up stuff, by those who never knew Jesus, or way after the fact. It is easy to make up stuff. So much of the Bible is just made up stuff. Read the unfortunately very innaccurate Gospels and forget Paul and forget the committee decisions of the 4th century----------and there is no real basis for the idea that Jesus died as a sacrifice for the sin of mankind. I might give you the idea that Jesus died as a sacrifice for our personal sins in our personal lifetimes-------but even that is debateable. Why was Jesus (the God) crucified and resurrected? It is only you and you alone and me and me alone who can determine that. Your guess is as good as mine. And your and my guess is just as valid as all the guessing about this subject that has gone on for 2000 years.

11-01-2004, 03:24 PM	#10
Bright Life Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,345	It's a question of faith, where faith equals blind acceptance. If one were to look at the whole thing as an observer, rather than a member of the practicing culture, I imagine it would be easier to explain. People accept this story, because they are told to accept it. There are some who choose to analyze this problem. Many become atheists.

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