Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mata leao · 10-30-2005, 08:50 PM

maybe sauron you have had "too" much training ...a little learning is a dangerous thing, so is a lot of learning....and a person can be "too smart by half"....to listen to you speak, I would almost gather that in your world view, the Bible and Christianity are utterly and thoroughly invalidated and it is all over but the singin'. I suspect you are one of those dogmatic absolutists who will say there is nothing prophetically accurate in the Bible and that there is no evidence for the validity of the Christian faith.
anyway, didnt mean to get personal, but I really am tired.

Sauron · 10-30-2005, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

maybe sauron you have had "too" much training ...a little learning is a dangerous thing, so is a lot of learning....and a person can be "too smart by half"

First you "perceive" that my education is lacking. Now you've decided that the opposite is true - perhaps too much education.

Isn't this really just another dog-and-pony show of yours, to avoid supplying the sources to these amazing claims you keep making?

Quote:

....to listen to you speak, I would almost gather that in your world view, the Bible and Christianity are utterly and thoroughly invalidated and it is all over but the singin'.

The bible is not literally correct. It is full of historical, scientific, archaeological and textual/linguistic errors. It is still a valuable addition to the world literature scene, however, when viewed in the proper historical context. I simply know the difference between a national myth (i.e., the Hebrew myth of their own rise) and a divinely inspired text.

Quote:

I suspect you are one of those dogmatic absolutists who will say there is nothing prophetically accurate in the Bible and that there is no evidence for the validity of the Christian faith.

No, there are many useful things that we know from the bible; like most ancient documents it gives us a window on a particular time in history. However, just as with these other documents, we know better than to take it 100% at face value, especially when there is abundant evidence of mistakes, textual tampering and outright error.

As long as you use a hammer like a hammer, you'll be fine. You only get in trouble when try to force the hammer to become a screwdriver. Same thing here.

Djugashvillain · 10-30-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

maybe sauron you have had "too" much training ...a little learning is a dangerous thing, so is a lot of learning....and a person can be "too smart by half"....to listen to you speak, I would almost gather that in your world view, the Bible and Christianity are utterly and thoroughly invalidated and it is all over but the singin'. I suspect you are one of those dogmatic absolutists who will say there is nothing prophetically accurate in the Bible and that there is no evidence for the validity of the Christian faith.
anyway, didnt mean to get personal, but I really am tired.

Ignorance is godliness, huh? You'd make a wonderful 19th century Russian peasant.

John A. Broussard · 10-30-2005, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

maybe sauron you have had "too" much training ...a little learning is a dangerous thing, so is a lot of learning....and a person can be "too smart by half"

Your view has already been adequately handled by Tertullian, an early church father. Learning, knowledge, evidence, proof---all are dangerous. He specifically recommended that you depend as little as possible on understanding.

Tertullian's words were, "I believe because it is absurd."

Isn't this really what your god wants from you? Complete, utter, blind belief?

Better to grovel before the almighty than to be "too smart by half."

Maimonides · 10-31-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Following are excerpts from some of the recent e-mail exchanges that Lee Merrill and I had regarding the Babylon prophecy.

Lee: I tell people *they* may rebuild Babylon. I pick it because it is actually falsifiable, by the very people who say there is no really fulfilled prophecy.

Johnny: If Babylon were to be rebuilt, would you give up Christianity?

Lee: Yes, I would give it up.

Johnny: It cannot logically be ruled out that the
people back then might have simply preferred to build the major city of Baghdad in another location rather than rebuild the city of Babylon in the same location.

Lee: Except they also tried to rebuild on the same location!

Johnny: In fact, Christians have never reasonably proven any prophecy that meets the
requirements of dating, fulfillment, not being a lucky guess, and being improbable enough to
indicate divine inspiration.

Lee: Then you may try and rebuild this city, that would be the best way to resolve this.

Johnny: Even if they did initially plan to rebuild at the same location and changed their minds and instead built Baghdad 55 miles away on the Tigris River, which was an excellent and
possibly better location, you can't prove that God had anything to do with it.

Lee: Well, you may try and rebuild on the same location! And I do think Saddam did try this: " Adjacent to Nebuchadnezzar's ancient palace and overlooking the Euphrates River, Saddam Hussein built a new palace ..."

Johnny: What indicates to you that it is probable
that the only reason that certain cities have not
been rebuilt is because God prevented them from being rebuilt? Is it reasonably possible that some cities in the world have not been rebuilt for
reasons that have nothing to do with God's
involvement?

Lee: Certainly, and you may rebuild those cities as well! Though that doesn't matter so much. The pertinent point here is not how probable rebuilding a city is! Anyone may make this attempt at any time, that is the point, and Muslims would be quite eager to rebuild
Babylon, and disprove Scripture. So would atheists. End of quotes.

Regarding “I tell people *they* may rebuild Babylon. I pick it because it is actually falsifiable, by the very people who say there is no really fulfilled prophecy,�? there is no evidence that any Old Testament Babylonians knew about the prophecy. That alone refutes all of Lee’s arguments. Regarding enemies of Christianity living today who are aware of the prophecy, Iraqis being the most pertinent example, they have many arguments at their disposal for discrediting Christianity (in their opinions) that preclude the need of trying to rebuild an ancient city of four square miles in a location where they don’t want to rebuild it. It is reasonable to conclude that the location of ancient Baghdad was deemed to be a better location for ordinary reasons that were sensible to the builders.

Lee has his work cut out for him. Following are some excerpts from a lengthy article at a Christian web site at http://askelm.com/prophecy/p021001.htm:

“The rebirth of Babylon is destined to play one of the leading roles in the end-time fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Its influence will be worldwide—affecting all people. Yet the majority of people today have little conception of the prophecies concerning the rebuilding of Babylon. The Bible not only shows that a literal Babylon will exist at the end of our age in majestic glory, but it will be resurrected in the same location as its ancient predecessor in the Middle East.

“The prophecies about the destruction of a literal Babylon on the River Euphrates mentioned in the Bible have never yet occurred. People who say they have, are avoiding all the truth of history. ANCIENT BABYLON WAS IN NO WAY DESTROYED AS THE SCRIPTURES PROPHESY THAT BABYLON MUST, emphasis mine). However, the prophecies of God have not failed. They refer to a Babylon destined to exist at the end of the age. This is shown by Jeremiah the prophet.�?

In his ‘Believer’s Bible Commentary,’ William MacDonald says the following:

“There are certain difficulties connected with the prophecies of the destruction of Babylon, both the city and the country (Isa. 12:6-22) 14:4-23; 21:2-9; 47:1-11; Jer. 25:12-14; 50;51). For example, the capture of the city by the Medes (Isa. 13:17) in 539 B.C. did not result in a destruction similar to that of Sodom and Gomorrah (Isa. 13:19); did not leave the city uninhabited forever (Isa. 13:20-22); was not accomplished by a nation from the north – Medo-Persia was to the east – (Jer. 50:3); did not result in Israel or more than a remnant of Judah seeking the Lord or returning to Zion (Jer. 50:4, 5); and did not involve the breaking of the walls and burning of the gates (Jer. 51:58).

“When we come to a difficulty like this, how do we handle it? First of all, we reaffirm our utter confidence in the Word of God. If there is any difficulty, it is because of our lack of knowledge. But we remember that the prophets often had a way of merging the immediate future and the distant future without always indicating any time signals. In other words, a prophecy could have a local, partial fulfillment and a remote, complete fulfillment. That is the case with Babylon. Not all the prophecies have been fulfilled. Some are still future.�?

Well I must say, readers, the two Christian references that I cited, and I am certain that there are more like them, adequately refute Lee Merrill much better than I ever could.

My two cents: "A nation from the north"- such as Scythia, perhaps? Sounds like vindictive imaginings (understandable, of course); I wouldn't look for prophetic fulfillment or even, necessarily, historical accuracy.

Maimonides · 10-31-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

maybe sauron you have had "too" much training ...a little learning is a dangerous thing, so is a lot of learning....and a person can be "too smart by half"....to listen to you speak, I would almost gather that in your world view, the Bible and Christianity are utterly and thoroughly invalidated and it is all over but the singin'. I suspect you are one of those dogmatic absolutists who will say there is nothing prophetically accurate in the Bible and that there is no evidence for the validity of the Christian faith.
anyway, didnt mean to get personal, but I really am tired.

Ah yes, the wonderful anti-intellectual strain in dogmatic, fundamentalist religion. It would seem that your particular brand of religion is utterly irrelevant to anyone with a good education and reasonably open mind.

Genesis is a lovely poetic myth, Noah's flood is a geological impossibility, the Tower of Babel is an historical and archaeological impossibility, the stories of Abraham were set down by ancient priests who probably drew on orally-recounted ancestor tales and myths (which may have had an astrological basis), the Hebrews were never in Egypt as a recognizable entity, the biblical Exodus never occured, the Gospels are contradictory and appear to be extensively textually 'doctored', Revelation is a profound eschatological myth (probably with some basis in the realities and legends of the time- thus Christ is seen in the guise of Greco-Roman gods, the beast may represent the Roman provincial system, the resurrection of the antichrist probably refers to legends of the return of Nero, etc.)

A devout evangelical Christian once told me something to the effect of 'the more educated you get the less you believe in Christianity.'

Telling, isn't it?

lee_merrill · 10-31-2005, 08:35 PM

Hi everyone,

Quote:

Johnny Skeptic: What do skeptics and Muslims believe that the results will be if they have Arabs pitch their tents in Babylon, and/or if Babylon were to be rebuilt?

Well, I think you should be the one the answer this question! Why are you trying to disprove the Christian faith by showing how various prophecies in the Bible are invalid?

Quote:

John Broussard: It won't matter if the entire Arab population of Iraq pitches their tents there, if Disney Inc. moves in and reproduces the old Babylon brick for brick and wall for wall. Lee will just say, sorry, it's not the same.

I also mentioned that the Bible says Babylon will never be reinhabited! So this would be quite easy to disprove undeniably. Also, we have an instance in Scripture of Jerusalem being rebuilt, and detailed descriptions of what was done there (seen Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah, whole books!). So a rebuilding of Babylon matching along these lines would fill the bill, and convince people who are wanting what is true, again, never mind the Flat Earth Society.

Quote:

Even if god, herself, came down and put it all back up the way it was in B.C., lee would deny that it was there.

Um, how do you know that, may I ask? Mainmonides conveniently quoted the following just now:

"Johnny: If Babylon were to be rebuilt, would you give up Christianity?

Lee: Yes, I would give it up."

Quote:

Mato Leao: Babylon the city state was the capital of an entire empire...

Sauron: So far that's the definition of "empire".

No, that's the definition of a city-state!

Quote:

Mato Leao: Babylon has NOT been rebuilt, not now, not ever.

Sauron: That's because it wasn't destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, thus invalidating the prophecy.

I think you may be getting Babylon confused with Tyre here. Neb was not supposed to destroy Babylon.

Quote:

Sauron: On the contrary; I'm very correct.

Well, actually, you are rather mistaken, on at least two counts.

Quote:

Mainmonides: A devout evangelical Christian once told me something to the effect of 'the more educated you get the less you believe in Christianity.'

Maybe he wasn't aware of C.S. Lewis. Or doesn't know about Hugh Ross. Tolkien comes to mind as well, and I find that the more I find out and discuss here and elsewhere, the more convinced I am, not less. And to refute me, just reinhabit Babylon, I dare you!

Quote:

Telling, isn't it?

Well yes, it is, this refusal to attempt rebuilding or reinhabiting this city, though perhaps this is not what you meant.

Regards,
Lee

P.S. I double-dog dare you!!

Johnny Skeptic · 11-01-2005, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

What do skeptics and Muslims believe that the results will be if they have Arabs pitch their tents in Babylon, and/or if Babylon were to be rebuilt?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeMerrill

Well, I think you should be the one the answer this question! Why are you trying to disprove the Christian faith by showing how various prophecies in the Bible are invalid?

It is YOU who have asserted on a number of occasions that skeptics and Muslims are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by rebuilding Babylon, but you know that that is not true. You know that if Babylon were to be rebuilt, the Christian Church would for all practical purposes be just as large as it is today, as clearly evidenced by the fact that although I have have asked you on a number of occasions to provide the names and e-mail addresses of just a few Christians, even fundamentalist Christians, who would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, you have continued to refuse to do so because you do not want to embarrass yourself anymore than you already have. You also know that if Babylon were to be rebuilt, U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims would be just the same as it is today. Do you dispute this?

[quote=Mainmonides] A devout evangelical Christian once told me something to the effect of 'the more educated you get the less you believe in Christianity.'

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeMerrill

Maybe he wasn't aware of C.S. Lewis. Or doesn't know about Hugh Ross. Tolkien comes to mind as well, and I find that the more I find out and discuss here and elsewhere, the more convinced I am, not less. And to refute me, just reinhabit Babylon, I dare you!

I dare you to contact the U.S. State Department. Please tell the truth for a change, Lee. I HAVE TOLD YOU ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS THAT I ACCEPT YOUR CHALLENGE TO HAVE ARABS PITCH THEIR TENTS IN BABYLON IF YOU WILL PROVIDE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT IF THE ATTEMPT IS SUCCESSFUL, IT WILL PROVIDE SUBSTANTIAL BENEFITS FOR SKEPTICS AND MUSLIMS. The quickest and simplest way to settle this would be to poll Christians and contact the U.S. State Department, would it not?

Sauron · 11-01-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

I also mentioned that the Bible says Babylon will never be reinhabited! So this would be quite easy to disprove undeniably.

That's already been done, in this case. You've been pointed to the photographs before, containing pictures of Saddam's palace, the auxiliary buildings, and local Iraqis who live there. The evidence has been "put in front of someone" - in this case, you:

Yet in spite of that, you still try to deny that your own conditions for overturning the babylon prophecy have been met. Why is that?

When given clear, convincing proof of failure, you refuse to acknowledge it.

Is it any wonder that we insist you prove that rebuilding babylon would cause christians to doubt their bible and leave christianity first, before asking us to spend any effort to rebuild babylon? Given your denial in the face of photographic evidence, why should anyone trust you?

The reality is that for fundamentalist christians, there is no such thing as "undeniable evidence", because they will always find a way to deny it.

Quote:

Mato Leao: Babylon the city state was the capital of an entire empire...

So far that's the definition of "empire".

No, that's the definition of a city-state!

Still guessing, lee?

Sadly, you are wrong. A city state is not defined by being the "capital of an entire empire", as mata leao said. A city-state is a city that functions as an independent political entity, not under the sway of any other power. Britannica:

city-state
a political system consisting of an independent city having sovereignty over contiguous territory and serving as a centre and leader of political, economic, and cultural life. The term originated in England in the late 19th century and has been applied especially to the cities of ancient Greece, Phoenicia, and Italy and to the cities of medieval Italy.

Babylon was not a city-state; it was the political seat of an entire empire.

Quote:

I think you may be getting Babylon confused with Tyre here. Neb was not supposed to destroy Babylon.

You are correct; I was tired and rushed my responses to both threads at once. The Babylon prophecy failed for the same reason that Tyre failed; they both were not destroyed by the named attackers in each prophecy. Nebuchadnezzar failed to destroy Tyre, and the Medes failed to destroy Babylon. In point of fact, the Medes were not the attackers at Babylon anyhow, it was the Persians -- just one more reason why the Babylon prophecy failed, and one more reason why your lame challenge is unnecessary: the prophecy is already overturned.

Quote:

Well, actually, you are rather mistaken, on at least two counts.

No, I am not.

1. I always knew how Babylon was invaded; if you go back and check our discussion about that event, I went into great detail about Cyrus, the location of Parthia, etc. I even gave you a map:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...13#post2550613
Being tired is not the same thing as being wrong.

2. You were 100% in error about what constitutes a city-state.

Quote:

And to refute me, just reinhabit Babylon, I dare you!

1. It's already been done.
2. But you still wiggle, in spite of that fact.
3. Given that, why should anyone trust what you say?

lee_merrill · 11-02-2005, 06:56 PM

Hi everyone,

Quote:

Johnny: The quickest and simplest way to settle this would be to poll Christians and contact the U.S. State Department, would it not?

Well, I would think the quickest way to settle this would be for you to please tell us why you are trying to discredit Scripture by irrefutably disproving other prophecies!

Quote:

Sauron: Yet in spite of that, you still try to deny that your own conditions for overturning the babylon prophecy have been met. Why is that?

Do you not remember my conditions for rebuilding? I stated them quite clearly. They have not been met.

"... if you want specific numbers, at least two blocks with a total of two miles of streets with houses along them, three temples similar to the ones we know were there once, if you wish me to define 'similar,' I would say as evaluated by at least 60% of the archaeologists who have published in Archaeology Review and who respond to a poll, where at least ten of them respond, at least 1,000 inhabitants, all on the former site of Babylon, and I would include rebuilding similar [as defined above] walls to those the city had."

Quote:

But you still wiggle, in spite of that fact.

It would seem to me that the wiggling is being done on the other side of the table.

Regards,
Lee

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10-30-2005, 08:50 PM	#341
mata leao Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: tampa,florida Posts: 342	maybe sauron you have had "too" much training ...a little learning is a dangerous thing, so is a lot of learning....and a person can be "too smart by half"....to listen to you speak, I would almost gather that in your world view, the Bible and Christianity are utterly and thoroughly invalidated and it is all over but the singin'. I suspect you are one of those dogmatic absolutists who will say there is nothing prophetically accurate in the Bible and that there is no evidence for the validity of the Christian faith. anyway, didnt mean to get personal, but I really am tired.

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