Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 07-22-2012, 12:10 AM

And the address in the Timaeus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: "Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works." So that when he says, "Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third," I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.

MrMacSon · 07-22-2012, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke Leto

You know, you MIGHT actually have a point on this one.

Earl Doherty contends Paul, or someone who initiated Paul, derived knowledge of the other-worldly Crucifixion from a bizarre interpretation of Tanakh prophesies in Middle Platonic terms... it's certainly not implausible that they got nudged in the direction of the idea by Platonic text you cite here.

....

I hypothesis the seed of Christianity were sown in the few centuries BC, and were evolving stories. Others have said there were dozens of salvation stories, but the ones that were the most popular - that became the canonical gospels - were the ones that most fulfilled prophetic stories.
.

EarlDoherty · 07-22-2012, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke Leto

You know, you MIGHT actually have a point on this one.

Earl Doherty contends Paul, or someone who initiated Paul, derived knowledge of the other-worldly Crucifixion from a bizarre interpretation of Tanakh prophesies in Middle Platonic terms... it's certainly not implausible that they got nudged in the direction of the idea by Platonic text you cite here.

I'd PM or email Doherty, see what he thinks of the suggestion.

Who can tell whether Plato supplied a "nudge" or only a "confirmation after the fact"? Could Paul have read Plato? Who knows? We would need more evidence in Paul. I think it's more likely Clement was quote-mining well after the fact, as HP suggests.

Earl Doherty

stephan huller · 07-22-2012, 01:00 PM

I don't. The crucifixion with its chi-shaped symbolism doesn't make sense in Judaism. Lambs aren't crucified. I've seen the way the Samaritans prepare them first hand. The symbolism that Clement speaks of here dates back to Justin. The same is true I think with respect to the prophesy of the Just One being crucified. It certainly doesn't come from within judaism

sotto voce · 07-22-2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

According to Clement, "Plato all but predicts the history of salvation." Clement believed he saw a clear reference to Jesus in book 2 of Plato's Republic, which depicts a dialogue between Socrates and Glaucon. Glaucon postulated that whereas most of us have a combination of righteousness and unrighteousness in us, that there would arise a man who was totally unrighteous, and another man who was totally righteous. Glaucon continues, Let this one "righteous man, in his nobleness and simplicity, one who desires ...to be a good man" be instead falsely accused of being the worst of men. Let him, more ever "remain steadfast to the hour of death, seeming to be unrighteous and yet being righteous." What will the outcome be? Glaucon answers that "he shall be scourged, tortured, bound, his eyes burnt out, and at last, after suffering every evil, shall be impaled or crucified." (Plato, Republic 2.360-61, IBID 44-45)

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Job, Isaiah, Jeremiah and the Roman Empire made it a dead cert. Easy peasy.

PhilosopherJay · 07-22-2012, 02:43 PM

Hi stephan,

Its a weird interpretation:

Quote:

Oceanus and Tethys were the children of Earth and Heaven, and from these sprang Phorcys and Cronos and Rhea, and all that generation; and from Cronos and Rhea sprang Zeus and Here, and all those who are said to be their brethren, and others who were the children of these.

Now, when all of them, both those who visibly appear in their revolutions as well as those other gods who are of a more retiring nature, had come into being, the creator of the universe addressed them in these words: "Gods, children of gods, who are my works, and of whom I am the artificer and father, my creations are indissoluble, if so I will. All that is bound may be undone, but only an evil being would wish to undo that which is harmonious and happy. Wherefore, since ye are but creatures, ye are not altogether immortal and indissoluble, but ye shall certainly not be dissolved, nor be liable to the fate of death, having in my will a greater and mightier bond than those with which ye were bound at the time of your birth.And now listen to my instructions:-Three tribes of mortal beings remain to be created-without them the universe will be incomplete, for it will not contain every kind of animal which it ought to contain, if it is to be perfect. On the other hand, if they were created by me and received life at my hands, they would be on an equality with the gods. In order then that they may be mortal, and that this universe may be truly universal, do ye, according to your natures, betake yourselves to the formation of animals, imitating the power which was shown by me in creating you. The part of them worthy of the name immortal, which is called divine and is the guiding principle of those who are willing to follow justice and you-of that divine part I will myself sow the seed, and having made a beginning, I will hand the work over to you. And do ye then interweave the mortal with the immortal, and make and beget living creatures, and give them food, and make them to grow, and receive them again in death."

The creator God makes the Gods who make other Gods. The Creator God promises the Gods that they will share in his immortality. Both the Creator God and the Gods creates the three mortal beings (apparently men, women and lower animals). The Gods create the body and the Creator adds the soul.

This is certainly a trinity of beings - Creator, Gods, animals. However the leap to Father, Son and Holy Ghost does not appear to make much sense.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

And the address in the Timaeus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: "Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works." So that when he says, "Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third," I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.

sotto voce · 07-22-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Clement also identifies the Trinity as coming from Plato's Letter to Dionysius.

Clement's screams will be heard for light years.

Sheshbazzar · 07-22-2012, 05:15 PM

00

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

... Glaucon postulated that whereas most of us have a combination of righteousness and unrighteousness in us, that there would arise a man who was totally unrighteous, and another man who was totally righteous. Glaucon continues, Let this one "righteous man, in his nobleness and simplicity, one who desires ...to be a good man" be instead falsely accused of being the worst of men. Let him, more ever "remain steadfast to the hour of death, seeming to be unrighteous and yet being righteous." What will the outcome be? Glaucon answers that "he shall be scourged, tortured, bound, his eyes burnt out, and at last, after suffering every evil, shall be impaled or crucified."

Soc; 'Hmmm...you know..., I believe this would make a terrific plot line for a really great story Glaucon!'

mountainman · 07-23-2012, 12:25 AM

"The teachings of Plato", says Justin, "are not alien to those of Christ; and the same is true of the Stoics."

"Heraclitus and Socrates lived in 'accordance to the divine Logos" and should be recognised as Christians.

Clement says that Plato wrote "by the inspiration of God".

Augustine, much later, finds that "only a few words and phrases" need to be changed to bring Platonism into complete accord with Christianity.

The Legacy of Greece - Oxford University Press (1921)

aa5874 · 07-23-2012, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

"The teachings of Plato", says Justin, "are not alien to those of Christ; and the same is true of the Stoics."

"Heraclitus and Socrates lived in 'accordance to the divine Logos" and should be recognised as Christians.

Clement says that Plato wrote "by the inspiration of God".

Augustine, much later, finds that "only a few words and phrases" need to be changed to bring Platonism into complete accord with Christianity.

The Legacy of Greece - Oxford University Press (1921)

It was from the 2nd century so-called Christians noticed. Isn't it odd that it took at least 100 years for Christians to realize Plato predicted the crucifixion???

It is clear that so-called Christians only realized Plato predicted the crucifixion from the 2nd century because that iS about the time the Jesus story of the crucifixion was INVENTED which is compatible with the recovered dated Texts.

07-23-2012, 12:25 AM	#19
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Clement says that Plato wrote "by the inspiration of God". "The teachings of Plato", says Justin, "are not alien to those of Christ; and the same is true of the Stoics." "Heraclitus and Socrates lived in 'accordance to the divine Logos" and should be recognised as Christians. Clement says that Plato wrote "by the inspiration of God". Augustine, much later, finds that "only a few words and phrases" need to be changed to bring Platonism into complete accord with Christianity. The Legacy of Greece - Oxford University Press (1921)

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07-22-2012, 12:10 AM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And the address in the Timaeus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: "Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works." So that when he says, "Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third," I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.

07-22-2012, 01:00 PM	#14
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't. The crucifixion with its chi-shaped symbolism doesn't make sense in Judaism. Lambs aren't crucified. I've seen the way the Samaritans prepare them first hand. The symbolism that Clement speaks of here dates back to Justin. The same is true I think with respect to the prophesy of the Just One being crucified. It certainly doesn't come from within judaism

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