FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-21-2012, 08:51 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default Plato Predicted the Crucifixion

According to Clement, "Plato all but predicts the history of salvation." Clement believed he saw a clear reference to Jesus in book 2 of Plato's Republic, which depicts a dialogue between Socrates and Glaucon. Glaucon postulated that whereas most of us have a combination of righteousness and unrighteousness in us, that there would arise a man who was totally unrighteous, and another man who was totally righteous. Glaucon continues, Let this one "righteous man, in his nobleness and simplicity, one who desires ...to be a good man" be instead falsely accused of being the worst of men. Let him, more ever "remain steadfast to the hour of death, seeming to be unrighteous and yet being righteous." What will the outcome be? Glaucon answers that "he shall be scourged, tortured, bound, his eyes burnt out, and at last, after suffering every evil, shall be impaled or crucified." (Plato, Republic 2.360-61, IBID 44-45) Thus Clement argued the Greeks had anticipated Christ all along. (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 5.12)

There is nothing in Judaism that would predict the crucifixion of the messiah.

Quote:
The Elegies of Solon, too, intensely deify the seventh day. And how? Is it not similar to Scripture when it says, "Let us remove the righteous man from us, because he is troublesome to us?" when Plato, all but predicting the economy of salvation, says in the second book of the Republic as follows: "Thus he who is constituted just shall be scourged, shall be stretched on the rack, shall be bound, have his eyes put out; and at last, having suffered all evils, shall be crucified."
stephan huller is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 09:46 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 945
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
According to Clement, "Plato all but predicts the history of salvation." Clement believed he saw a clear reference to Jesus in book 2 of Plato's Republic, which depicts a dialogue between Socrates and Glaucon. Glaucon postulated that whereas most of us have a combination of righteousness and unrighteousness in us, that there would arise a man who was totally unrighteous, and another man who was totally righteous. Glaucon continues, Let this one "righteous man, in his nobleness and simplicity, one who desires ...to be a good man" be instead falsely accused of being the worst of men. Let him, more ever "remain steadfast to the hour of death, seeming to be unrighteous and yet being righteous." What will the outcome be? Glaucon answers that "he shall be scourged, tortured, bound, his eyes burnt out, and at last, after suffering every evil, shall be impaled or crucified." (Plato, Republic 2.360-61, IBID 44-45) Thus Clement argued the Greeks had anticipated Christ all along. (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 5.12)
It's hypothetical designed to challenge Socrates to prove that virtue is it's own reward. It's not myth or prophecy.

The "seeming unrighteous" seems unjust to everyone, there are no faithful, no one perceiving the just man as just; instead everyone perceives the unjust man as just.
Horatio Parker is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 09:48 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Perhaps I should have entitled the thread 'Clement Said Plato Predicted the Crucifixion' but I didn't see the point. I meant it to be a juxtaposition between Platonism and Judaism in terms of explaining the contemporary notion in earliest Christianity that the crucifixion was predicted.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 10:06 PM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,387
Default

You know, you MIGHT actually have a point on this one.

Earl Doherty contends Paul, or someone who initiated Paul, derived knowledge of the other-worldly Crucifixion from a bizarre interpretation of Tanakh prophesies in Middle Platonic terms... it's certainly not implausible that they got nudged in the direction of the idea by Platonic text you cite here.

I'd PM or email Doherty, see what he thinks of the suggestion.
Duke Leto is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 10:17 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 945
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Perhaps I should have entitled the thread 'Clement Said Plato Predicted the Crucifixion' but I didn't see the point. I meant it to be a juxtaposition between Platonism and Judaism in terms of explaining the contemporary notion in earliest Christianity that the crucifixion was predicted.
I get you; it seems quite a stretch is all.

Not that that stopped Clement.
Horatio Parker is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 10:27 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Clement also identifies the Trinity as coming from Plato's Letter to Dionysius.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:17 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 945
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Clement also identifies the Trinity as coming from Plato's Letter to Dionysius.
Plato was talking about the use of analogy to relate ideas to one anther, but that's less of a stretch than the other.

Looking at the Stromata, I would guess that Clement was more interested in quote-mining Plato than understanding him.
Horatio Parker is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:20 PM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I have another stupid theory about that passage if I could figure out what Plato means by "second with secondary and third with tertiary" or what is said there. Is there any proof that this passage was applied to a triangle? Do you know what I am talking about?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:44 PM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default



You know Moses's name in Hebrew = 345 also 'the name,' 'his name' and 'Mark' in Samaritan Aramaic
stephan huller is offline  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:49 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bronx, NY
Posts: 945
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
I have another stupid theory about that passage if I could figure out what Plato means by "second with secondary and third with tertiary" or what is said there. Is there any proof that this passage was applied to a triangle? Do you know what I am talking about?
Plato is saying that we know what things are by comparing them to the One and each other. There's nothing special about three instances that I can see.

Assuming you're talking about this passage:

N/A
Horatio Parker is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:01 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.