stephan huller

According to Clement, "Plato all but predicts the history of salvation." Clement believed he saw a clear reference to Jesus in book 2 of Plato's Republic, which depicts a dialogue between Socrates and Glaucon. Glaucon postulated that whereas most of us have a combination of righteousness and unrighteousness in us, that there would arise a man who was totally unrighteous, and another man who was totally righteous. Glaucon continues, Let this one "righteous man, in his nobleness and simplicity, one who desires ...to be a good man" be instead falsely accused of being the worst of men. Let him, more ever "remain steadfast to the hour of death, seeming to be unrighteous and yet being righteous." What will the outcome be? Glaucon answers that "he shall be scourged, tortured, bound, his eyes burnt out, and at last, after suffering every evil, shall be impaled or crucified." (Plato, Republic 2.360-61, IBID 44-45) Thus Clement argued the Greeks had anticipated Christ all along. (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 5.12)

There is nothing in Judaism that would predict the crucifixion of the messiah.

Horatio Parker

It's hypothetical designed to challenge Socrates to prove that virtue is it's own reward. It's not myth or prophecy.

The "seeming unrighteous" seems unjust to everyone, there are no faithful, no one perceiving the just man as just; instead everyone perceives the unjust man as just.

stephan huller

Perhaps I should have entitled the thread 'Clement Said Plato Predicted the Crucifixion' but I didn't see the point. I meant it to be a juxtaposition between Platonism and Judaism in terms of explaining the contemporary notion in earliest Christianity that the crucifixion was predicted.

Duke Leto

You know, you MIGHT actually have a point on this one.

Earl Doherty contends Paul, or someone who initiated Paul, derived knowledge of the other-worldly Crucifixion from a bizarre interpretation of Tanakh prophesies in Middle Platonic terms... it's certainly not implausible that they got nudged in the direction of the idea by Platonic text you cite here.

I'd PM or email Doherty, see what he thinks of the suggestion.

Horatio Parker

I get you; it seems quite a stretch is all.

Not that that stopped Clement.

stephan huller

Clement also identifies the Trinity as coming from Plato's Letter to Dionysius.

Horatio Parker

Plato was talking about the use of analogy to relate ideas to one anther, but that's less of a stretch than the other.

Looking at the Stromata, I would guess that Clement was more interested in quote-mining Plato than understanding him.

stephan huller

I have another stupid theory about that passage if I could figure out what Plato means by "second with secondary and third with tertiary" or what is said there. Is there any proof that this passage was applied to a triangle? Do you know what I am talking about?

stephan huller

You know Moses's name in Hebrew = 345 also 'the name,' 'his name' and 'Mark' in Samaritan Aramaic

Horatio Parker

Plato is saying that we know what things are by comparing them to the One and each other. There's nothing special about three instances that I can see.

Assuming you're talking about this passage:

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