Gullwind

One of the justifications used by some fundamentalists (Hovind, etc.) for their literal interpretation of the bible is that the Hebrew word for day means a 24-hour day. Any other interpretation is incorrect, adds things to the bible and is a sin. (Their words not mine).

It occurred to me a while ago that the same logic might be applied to the use of "window" in the context of the source of the rain for the flood. If every use of "window" in the bible refers to a literal window, then the windows of heaven in Genesis 7 should also.

I'm not terribly familiar with the Hebrew root words that are translated as "window" so I don't know if this will hold water (no pun intended ).

Any thoughts?

RBH

I think this'll do better in BC&H.

RBH
E/C Moderator

spin

One of the interesting things about ancient literature is the way many things we take for granted they didn't. We can happily draw the fundamental distinction between story and history, yet such nett concepts didn't exist in ancient literature. The two words "story" and "history" come in fact from the same source. Obviously a notional understanding of the difference between what happened and what didn't must have been grasped, but not in any coherent manner.

Hebrew was a heavily metaphorizing language: it was very easy to drift into metaphor, while Greek was a much more analytical tool for communicating meaning. The full significance of this tendency to metaphorize I cannot say: did people who tended to metaphorize see that they were making metaphors or did they see it merely as an extension of current thought and understanding?

When God separated the waters below from the waters above and placed a separation to hold those above up in Gen 1:6-7, the word used is one which would describe something beaten flat out of metal, that which we call the firmament. Above it were the waters, obviously when it rained windows in the firmament would be opened and the waters would fall as rain. There were storehouses for snow and hail (Jb 38:22) and when the time came they would be opened and out would come snow or hail. There were even storehouses for the wind (Ps 135:7).

Is it surprising that in Gen 7:11 one finds "the windows of heaven"? How else could rain come down, if someone didn't open the windows of heaven? Sure, it's a metaphor, but wasn't it also accepted as reality, whatever that may have been perceived to be in those days?

A day was twenty-four hours. It had a morning and an evening. seven of them would make a basic unite in Hebrew thought, in which the seventh was a rest day and this was because God showed that one rested on the seventh. Did he mean that a day was something other than 24 hours? What would that do to the notion of resting on the sabbath?


spin

Boro Nut

I don't think you can get them with that one. It doesn't translate as 'window' in the sense you mean. In the original hebrew it's much closer to 'sump cock'.

Boro Nut

spin

What do you think Gen 8:6 means with Noah opening the window?


spin

Anat

spin, the flood story has several words for openings that could be translated as 'window': the flood rains come through 'arubot hashamaim' (windows of heaven), whereas the window of the ark is called 'tzohar' in Genesis 6:16 and 'halon' in Genesis 8:6. Just for clarification for the readers.

Godless Wonder

Was Boro Nut being serious? The language of Boro Nut can be very metaphorical...very much tractus vestri crur.

spin

Boro Nut often often takes the "piss". Why let that stop you?

It's a bit hard to translate CHR, as it only occurs once in the HB, but BDB try "roof". As for )RBH, BDB gives "lattice" (as in that which might cover a window); the JPS fudges with "floodgates".


spin

Anat

In Mishnaic Hebrew, IIRC )RBH meant some kind of skylight - there was the story of Hillel who didn't have money for tuition one Friday (when he was still a student of Shmaiah and Avtalion) - he climbed on the roof to listen to the lesson from the )RBH. Since it was winter he froze there (or was covered with snow, can't remember). The masters noticed the next morning (Shabbat) that the room was too dim, and found him on the roof and revived him. They proclaimed that Hillel was worthy for them to have desecrated Shabbat to have saved his life.

Celsus

Ah, it all makes sense now! When the Windows of Heaven crashed, it flooded the whole earth with cheap Microsoft products. Apparently, God is still having trouble with Bill "Gates" and his technical support staff. Yet another Biblical prophecy debunked. :thumbs: But to be fair, it's not God's fault when he told Noah he wouldn't do it again, since it really is down to the crap software he's using, so I wouldn't quote it against the apologists. Live and learn, eh God?

Joel