Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Half-Life · 01-09-2006, 02:06 PM

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Sounds pretty convincing right?

Well, what about the next verse?

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Where in the New Testament does it describe Jesus as eating butter and honey? Because the word "he" in the 15th verse is implying the son in verse 14, we can conclude this cannot be a prophecy about Jesus. Did Jesus also have know to refuse the evil and CHOOSE the good? Now, I thought Jesus was already good since the beginning of time? How can he choose good?

Now, looking at the sentence, Verse 14, it is easy to see how this might be an amazing prophecy. But, if you read more into it, it becomes more vague and not about Jesus at all.

I am just trying to exercise some Bible knowledge and actually start reading it. I was always relying on other websites that have the prophecies written with only one sentence but not in the whole context of the chapter of the book.

If you claim the butter and honey that Jesus eats is not meant to be literal, how can you conclude verse 14 is meant to be literal too? Maybe it wasn't.

While I do believe Jesus is the Savior, I do not know if he was born of a Virgin anymore. What do you guys think? I do not want to misinterpret the word of God but it does clearly state BUTTER AND HONEY SHALL HE EAT.

motorhead · 01-09-2006, 02:15 PM

For starters, I don't think you'll find many on here that will agree these verses have anything to do with Jesus. So, if you're looking for support, you may not find it. I would recommend reading the story around those verses because it's not a prophecy about Jesus, or the Jewish Messiah at all.

jjauga · 01-09-2006, 02:38 PM

This verse is found in the story of Ahaz and the struggle of the Jerusalem against its enemies. Isaiah is instructed to comfort God's people by saying that within nine months God will be with them, for that is the meaning of Immanuel. If you notice in the next chapter, upon the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz God again promises that this is the appointed time of His coming and that before the boy is old enough to speak (also before the time the boy would be able to choose right from wrong, mentioned in chapter 7) that the king of Assyria will crush Damascus and Samaria.
I researched the meaning of the word used for "virgin" in verse 14 and in the Greek it also means 'one who is betrothed', so it does not necessarily reference the Virgin Mary.
Hope this helps.

Asha'man · 01-09-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Now, looking at the sentence, Verse 14, it is easy to see how this might be an amazing prophecy. But, if you read more into it, it becomes more vague and not about Jesus at all.

I am just trying to exercise some Bible knowledge and actually start reading it. I was always relying on other websites that have the prophecies written with only one sentence but not in the whole context of the chapter of the book.

Half-life, I am exceedingly proud of you. :thumbs:

You have begun to actually learn and think skeptically, and the whole world is about to become more sensible.

But there is yet more research you can do, on this very verse. Go check out the word 'virgin' in a concordance. It's actually a mistranslation for 'young woman.' Also, keep reading this same passage, you will see more reasons why this refers to someone other than Jesus, as jjauga points out.

Boro Nut · 01-09-2006, 04:28 PM

Also, considering this was a contemporary prophecy, for a contemporary king, saying that the king's troubles would be over by the time the child was old enough to know the difference between good and evil, and the child was indeed born (it's all there when you read it), how do you feel about Jesus being only the 2nd virgin birth? The word can't mean 'Maiden' at the time of the original prophecy but mean 'Virgin' 500 years later can it? Not to mention the Immanuel problem.

Magi : Hello Mrs Christ, I wonder if we could just drop off a few gifts for baby Immanuel?

Mary : Who?

Immanuel.

There's no Immanuel here, sorry.

I can see him in the straw.

Oh no, that's my little Jesus that is. I've only just dropped him. As you can see by the clots you're stood in.

I think you'll find that's Immanuel young lady.

Don't you young lady me mate. It's my baby, and I get to call him what I want. He's Jesus Reginald Pantera Christ, and he's going to be a legionnaire like his dad when he grows up.

He's Immanuel, and he'll be a carpenter whether you like it or not.

Bollocks.

Oh, so you won't be wanting the gold then?

?

???

Joseph dear, would you see if Immanuel's still awake? He's got visitors.

Boro Nut

Mountain Man · 01-09-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Sounds pretty convincing right?.....

No. His name wasn't Immanuel. And you have the wrong person. Read the whole chapter and leave it IN context. Who was the woman that was supposed to have this kid? It gives her name. And what was to happen when she gave birth? She had the kid and was no virgin, she was a married woman. They lost the war that the birth of this kid was predicting they'd win. It's just another among thousands of lies in the bible.

FatherMithras · 01-09-2006, 05:01 PM

The word virgin is an innacurate translation of the word for "young maiden". The prophecy was misused.

noah · 01-09-2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

While I do believe Jesus is the Savior

Why? Says who? Who says we need a saviour? Prove we need a saviour.

Julian · 01-10-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Sounds pretty convincing right?

Well, what about the next verse?

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Where in the New Testament does it describe Jesus as eating butter and honey? Because the word "he" in the 15th verse is implying the son in verse 14, we can conclude this cannot be a prophecy about Jesus. Did Jesus also have know to refuse the evil and CHOOSE the good? Now, I thought Jesus was already good since the beginning of time? How can he choose good?

Now, looking at the sentence, Verse 14, it is easy to see how this might be an amazing prophecy. But, if you read more into it, it becomes more vague and not about Jesus at all.

I am just trying to exercise some Bible knowledge and actually start reading it. I was always relying on other websites that have the prophecies written with only one sentence but not in the whole context of the chapter of the book.

If you claim the butter and honey that Jesus eats is not meant to be literal, how can you conclude verse 14 is meant to be literal too? Maybe it wasn't.

While I do believe Jesus is the Savior, I do not know if he was born of a Virgin anymore. What do you guys think? I do not want to misinterpret the word of God but it does clearly state BUTTER AND HONEY SHALL HE EAT.

You know, I don't reply to your posts anymore because it is never worth the time, it is usually just silly apologetics that you have copied form some website.

I had to respond to this, though, because you are starting think about what you are reading and that is an encouraging sign. It is okay to believe in Jesus, I guess, but it is goofy to believe that the bible is inerrant. We have a number of christians here who believe strongly but they don't believe that the bible is inerrant and they add great value to the discussions here. Maybe you could join them one day?

Good job, Half-Life.

And no, the section in Isaiah is not about Jesus. Why does it need to be? Why does Jesus have to be validated by the OT? Is his importance any less just because a particular line in the OT doesn't apply to him?

Julian

Jack the Bodiless · 01-10-2006, 08:09 AM

To expand a little on the answers already given:

The Hebrew word "almah" in Isaiah 7:14 does indeed mean "young woman" rather than "virgin" ("betulah" is the Hebrew word for "virgin"). Some apologists will nevertheless argue that an "almah" genrerally WAS a "virgin", so the two words are somewhat interchangeable (rather like the English "maiden").

However, in addition to the context problem (the fact that this "prophecy" was intended for King Ahaz), Isaiah himself then "goes in unto" this woman. So, her presumably virginal state when the prophecy was made soon becomes irrelevant...

01-09-2006, 02:06 PM	#1
Half-Life Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A place in the Northern Hemisphere of Planet Earth Posts: 1,250	Virgin Birth Prophecy? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Sounds pretty convincing right? Well, what about the next verse? 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Where in the New Testament does it describe Jesus as eating butter and honey? Because the word "he" in the 15th verse is implying the son in verse 14, we can conclude this cannot be a prophecy about Jesus. Did Jesus also have know to refuse the evil and CHOOSE the good? Now, I thought Jesus was already good since the beginning of time? How can he choose good? Now, looking at the sentence, Verse 14, it is easy to see how this might be an amazing prophecy. But, if you read more into it, it becomes more vague and not about Jesus at all. I am just trying to exercise some Bible knowledge and actually start reading it. I was always relying on other websites that have the prophecies written with only one sentence but not in the whole context of the chapter of the book. If you claim the butter and honey that Jesus eats is not meant to be literal, how can you conclude verse 14 is meant to be literal too? Maybe it wasn't. While I do believe Jesus is the Savior, I do not know if he was born of a Virgin anymore. What do you guys think? I do not want to misinterpret the word of God but it does clearly state BUTTER AND HONEY SHALL HE EAT.

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01-09-2006, 02:15 PM	#2
motorhead Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Land of Make Believe Posts: 781	For starters, I don't think you'll find many on here that will agree these verses have anything to do with Jesus. So, if you're looking for support, you may not find it. I would recommend reading the story around those verses because it's not a prophecy about Jesus, or the Jewish Messiah at all.

01-09-2006, 02:38 PM	#3
jjauga Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Portland Posts: 6	This verse is found in the story of Ahaz and the struggle of the Jerusalem against its enemies. Isaiah is instructed to comfort God's people by saying that within nine months God will be with them, for that is the meaning of Immanuel. If you notice in the next chapter, upon the birth of Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz God again promises that this is the appointed time of His coming and that before the boy is old enough to speak (also before the time the boy would be able to choose right from wrong, mentioned in chapter 7) that the king of Assyria will crush Damascus and Samaria. I researched the meaning of the word used for "virgin" in verse 14 and in the Greek it also means 'one who is betrothed', so it does not necessarily reference the Virgin Mary. Hope this helps.

01-09-2006, 04:28 PM	#5
Boro Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Middlesbrough, England Posts: 3,909	Also, considering this was a contemporary prophecy, for a contemporary king, saying that the king's troubles would be over by the time the child was old enough to know the difference between good and evil, and the child was indeed born (it's all there when you read it), how do you feel about Jesus being only the 2nd virgin birth? The word can't mean 'Maiden' at the time of the original prophecy but mean 'Virgin' 500 years later can it? Not to mention the Immanuel problem. Magi : Hello Mrs Christ, I wonder if we could just drop off a few gifts for baby Immanuel? Mary : Who? Immanuel. There's no Immanuel here, sorry. I can see him in the straw. Oh no, that's my little Jesus that is. I've only just dropped him. As you can see by the clots you're stood in. I think you'll find that's Immanuel young lady. Don't you young lady me mate. It's my baby, and I get to call him what I want. He's Jesus Reginald Pantera Christ, and he's going to be a legionnaire like his dad when he grows up. He's Immanuel, and he'll be a carpenter whether you like it or not. Bollocks. Oh, so you won't be wanting the gold then? ? ??? Joseph dear, would you see if Immanuel's still awake? He's got visitors. Boro Nut

01-09-2006, 05:01 PM	#7
FatherMithras Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 3,890	The word virgin is an innacurate translation of the word for "young maiden". The prophecy was misused.

01-10-2006, 08:09 AM	#10
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	To expand a little on the answers already given: The Hebrew word "almah" in Isaiah 7:14 does indeed mean "young woman" rather than "virgin" ("betulah" is the Hebrew word for "virgin"). Some apologists will nevertheless argue that an "almah" genrerally WAS a "virgin", so the two words are somewhat interchangeable (rather like the English "maiden"). However, in addition to the context problem (the fact that this "prophecy" was intended for King Ahaz), Isaiah himself then "goes in unto" this woman. So, her presumably virginal state when the prophecy was made soon becomes irrelevant...

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