Richbee

Johnny, go do your own homework for a change!

Richbee

Boo!

I was rest my foot. (Kickin' arse hurts my foot sometimes!)

Richbee

I notice you keep using this Assyrian word for the mainland city called Tyre in the Bible?

Does this help your case?

Please note that when I used the Arab word, Sour or Sur - what some call Tyre, really can't be compared in any sense to the Biblical Tyre. Size, location, international trade, glory, wealth, people, King, Kingdom.

As one example, the Biblical Tyre had a large port facing South - called the Egyptian port, because it faced south toward Egypt. It was destroyed at some point.

Today, Tyre (I posted links to the pictures) has a tiny little harbor for fishing boats!

Hahahahahaha!

I will always remember the glory of Farrell Till's Tyre – the QUEEN OF THE SEAS!

Richbee

I disagree! (again)

I posted Ezekiel 28, with details of the prophecy against the King, and the commerce of Tyre - specified as regional in scope. (Cedar as an example)

It should also be noted, that this is a Spiritual prophecy as well.

Ezekiel 28 (New International Version)

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

1 The word of the LORD came to me:
2 "Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre,
'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3 Are you wiser than Daniel?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4 By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5 By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8 They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9 Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

11 The word of the LORD came to me:

12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him:

'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=28&version=31


We will have to disagree - again and again.

I don't know why skeptics luv Tyre so much?

Ezekiel 28:19

Oh what a HORRIBLE END!

I posted the pictures of the Tyre you luv so much! Like a sewer for poor fishermen!

But of course, Tyre is no more! And, neither are the Tyrians!

Richbee

I mentioned that I posted and used two websites as apologetic sources for some of my arguments.

John Bloom's would represent a third..............

Quote:

In summary we can reconstruct the following:

Nebuchadnezzar, like Esarhaddon a century before him, waged a conventional land-based attack against the mainland portion of greater Tyre. He successfully captured the mainland, but not before most of the occupants had a chance to flee to the island fortress, taking the best of their goods with them. After a 13-year siege, the island was starved into submission, and became a vassal of Babylon. There was a change' of leadership and undoubtedly some tribute paid, but the island was not pillaged. Given the minimal return for their effort, God rewarded Nebuchadnezzar's troops by granting them success against Egypt. Ezekiel 29:17-21 is not "making lemonade out of a lemon" or trying to cover for a failed prophecy; it is simply rewarding the first of the many waves of nations that will follow.

4) Alexander's attack against the island city of Tyre in 332 B.C. is famous in military history. While invading Persia and Egypt, Alexander did not want to leave his flank exposed to a possible counterattack from Tyre, a vassal of Persia and the strongest naval power on the Mediterranean. Rather than waste time besieging the island for years, he decided to build a land bridge out to the island and take it by direct attack. This dramatic venture is well documented in Arrian's Anabasis Alexandri.

Many commentators feel that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled in Alexander's attack, and some liberal scholars argue for a late date for Ezekiel by claiming that later disciples inserted the material that describes Alexander's siege so well.23 Clearly, Alexander fulfilled the comments that the rubble of Tyre would be thrown into the sea, since the mainland ruins were used to build the land bridge out to the island.24 However Ezekiel predicts that Tyre would not be rebuilt, and that it would become a place for the spreading of fishnets. From Arrian's descriptions it is very clear that Alexander did not level the island fortress, in fact, he had Tyre rebuilt. Tyre remained an important trading and manufacturing center that was fought over by Alexander's immediate successors, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids.25

Recent excavations at Tyre show how large the city was in Roman times. A hippodrome with a seating capacity for 60,000 people and a large necropolis were discovered on the mainland in the 1970's. Clearly in New Testament times, the prophecy of Ezekiel was not fulfilled: Tyre was a thriving commercial center when the First Testament was distributed throughout the Roman Empire by Jewish and Christian communities alike. Thus it seems strange for critics to propose that a late redactor inserted the material about Alexander "after the fact," but was so foolish to put in (or leave in) these obvious errors.

5) Tyre served as a major trading and manufacturing center throughout the Byzantine and Muslim periods. During the Crusades, Tyre remained strong and well-fortified, surviving a siege by Saladin in 1187-88 A.D. Finally, in 1291 A.D., the last wave of the nations crashed against Tyre. The Mamluks from Egypt took Tyre, massacred the citizens or sold them into slavery, and destroyed the city as part of their "scorched-earth" policy to thwart any attempt by the Crusaders to return.26 The region then suffered under inter-sect Muslim rivalry, a major earthquake and plague. Several travelogues written during this period remark that the site was essentially abandoned.

In the 1760's a small settlement at Tyre was encouraged by regional authorities, which grew into a small fishing village. Tyre finally became a place for the spreading of fishnets.

6) Over the past 30 years the city of Tyre has grown in size, thanks to a new water supply and Lebanese efforts to develop the excellent beaches near the site as a resort and tourist attraction.27 However, the civil war and proximity to Israel make the region unstable today. Looting at the site is a major concern of archaeologists and historians. Despite this modest growth there seems to be no danger that Tyre will once again become the world-class commercial center and naval power that earned her the title of "Queen of the Seas".

Summary

While commentators may haggle over Nebuchadnezzar's siege, Alexander's battle, the editing of the text by redactor-disciples, and Ezekiel's supposed admission of his failed prophecy, it seems obvious that his prediction has been fulfilled for the past 700 years. I am not aware of any scholar who claims that Ezekiel's predictions about the city not being rebuilt and its fishnets were inserted by disciples or redactors after 1300 A.D. or 1800 A.D.

But weren't most ancient cities destroyed? Weren't many sites abandoned? One would think that if one wait long enough, eventually any site will be abandoned. While a detailed answer to these questions goes beyond the bounds of this paper, we can briefly say in response: Not necessarily. Tyre's sister city, Sidon, located about 20 miles up coast, serves as a good control for this possibility. Ezekiel prophesies (28:22-23) that Sidon will face war, plague and famine, but he never says that she will never be rebuilt or will be reduced to a small fishing village. Sidon has had a bloody past; for example, in 352 B.C., 40,000 Sidonians locked themselves in their city and set fire to it rather than submit to the Persians.28 Yet today she persists as a small coastal city of Lebanon, a fact which hampers archaeologists from studying the area. Clearly, if Ezekiel or a later editor had simply switched the names of these sister cities in the predictions, neither would have been fulfilled.

Conclusion

Is fulfilled prophecy of value for scholarly apologetics? I would say yes. As I have tried to illustrate with the example of Tyre, it allows us to engage liberal scholarship and respond to liberal attacks on the reliability of Scripture. After all, somebody who wrote or edited the book of Ezekiel was able to predict the future. Moreover, fulfilled prophecy plays a critical role in apologetics because it helps to show that God influences history and therefore may be relevant to our personal lives.

However, it appears to me that conservative biblical scholars have shied away from the serious study of fulfilled prophecy because of the fear of liberal criticism and the sensationalizing publications of trendy popularizers. We need to retrieve this topic from the wastebasket of liberal skepticism and the soapboxes of doomsayers!

http://www.apologetics.com/default.j...-prophecy.html

Johnny Skeptic

Richbee fails to grasp the obvious. 1) Historically, kingdoms rising and falling has been the rule, not the exception. 2) Ruins of ancient cities and kingdoms are quite common. 3) There is no evidence that the prophecy was written before the events. Even if it was, there is no evidence that Ezekiel did not learn about Nebuchadnezzar's plans by ordinary means. 4) There is no evidence that the prophecy was not revised years after it was originally written. 5) There is nothing at all unusual about fishing nets being spread to dry by people who live near water. It would in fact be surprising if people who lived near water did not spread their nets to dry. Nets were spread to dry during all stages of Tyre's history, so any mention of nets is quite ridiculous. 6) In the NIV, Ezekiel 26:4 says “They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.” In the NASB, the verse reads “They will destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock.” In the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, the definitions of the word “bare” are as follows: 1 a : lacking a natural, usual, or appropriate covering b (1) : lacking clothing (2) obsolete : BAREHEADED c : UNARMED
2 : open to view : EXPOSED
3 a : unfurnished or scantily supplied b : DESTITUTE <bare of all safeguards>
4 a : having nothing left over or added <the bare necessities of life> b : MERE <a bare two hours away> c : devoid of amplification or adornment
5 obsolete : WORTHLESS
- bare•ness noun
synonyms BARE, NAKED, NUDE, BALD, BARREN mean deprived of naturally or conventionally appropriate covering. BARE implies the removal of what is additional, superfluous, ornamental, or dispensable <an apartment with bare walls>. NAKED suggests absence of protective or ornamental covering but may imply a state of nature, of destitution, or of defenselessness <poor half-naked children>. NUDE applies especially to the unclothed human figure <a nude model posing for art students>. BALD implies actual or seeming absence of natural covering and may suggest a conspicuous bareness <a bald mountain peak>. BARREN often suggests aridity or impoverishment or sterility <barren plains>.”

There is no evidence that the mainland settlement of Tyre was ever bareheaded, bare of all safeguards, naked, nude, bald, or having nothing left over or added. 7) The Tyrians against whom the prophecy had been originally spoken against had been dead for centuries by the time that Alexander attacked the island settlement. The Tyrians who were alive when Alexander attacked the island settlement were not culpable in any way. They simply inherited a preexisting problem. 8) As with ALL cities and kingdoms, the island settlement would have eventually been defeated WHETHER OR NOT the inhabitants had angered God. Wars, plagues, famines, natural disasters etc. have happened globally for millennia to people of ALL world views. Jews lost many battles and wars too over the last 4,000 years, so they have been in the same boat as everyone else has been in.

Daniel

But there it is again, the city was clearly rebuilt and still stands where it was. And it isn't a small fishing village by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, here is what Ezekiel says:



Does that look like a bare rock to you, or a place that has never been rebuilt?

noah

Richbee wrote
Easy Richbee. Because Ezekiel's prophecy failed. You have yet to prove two things:

1) Tyre was ever at any time, after Nebby's siege, a bare rock.

2) That Tyre was never rebuilt.

Another challenge you face: Ezekiel 27:34 and

Ezekiel 26:19 (King James Version)
Both these verses make it clear that Tyre will be swallowed up by the sea.

Therefore, just like Lee Merrill before you, you must prove two things:

1) That Tyre sank.

2) When Tyre sank.

You also make this claim:
Wrong. Tyre was the port. It was a port. It had two excellent harbors. It was an island city/kingdom. It was also a port. Los Angeles is a port. So is Montreal, Vancouver, Baltimore, Boston and Houston.

Richbee wrote:
Wrong. Tyre was the island, not the mainland colonies. Both the Hebrew name (Zor) and the Arabic name (Sour) of Tyre mean "rock," and the only rock around is the island, the island of Tyre. The surrounding/neighboring mainland is (relatively) flat. How do you make a "rock" out of flat land?
The bible itself contradicts you.
Joshua 19:29 makes clear that Tyre is a city:
None other than Ezekiel himself tells us Tyre was the city on the island:

Ezekiel 27:25
Ezekiel 27:4
Ezekiel 26:17
Ezekiel 27:32
Source: Bible Gateway

A few more points for you to consider. More precisely points taken from antiquity (some of it relatively contemporary) which contradict your claim that Tyre was not the city on the island but rather the "city" on the mainland.

- Relief(s) from the bronze gates of Balawat of Shalmaneser III (858-824 BC) show Tyre paying tribute. How is this meaningful? Because the tribute is being brought by boat. In other words Tyre is clearly shown as being an island.

- Esarhaddon (680-669 BC) of Assyria boasts of conquering Tyre, which is identified as an island. (ANET, p.290)

- In Ashurbanipal's third campaign, directed against Tyre, he said: (ANET, p.295-296)

Note here in this quote the distinction between the island city of Tyre and the mainland suburb of Ushu is established:
- Please note this text. It doesn't say that Tyre HAD a port in the sea. It says Tyre IS the port. Also, note the word "another." Uzu (Ushu) is NOT Tyre!The text is a school text used in Egypt, from the late 13th century BC:
- (ANET, p.477)

(Quotes taken from: Tyre (ANET): Pritchard, James B. 1955. Ancient Near Eastern Text Relating to the Old Testament (or via: amazon.co.uk). Princeton: Princeton University Press.)


Perhaps most importantly is the word of Nina Jidejian, a scholar who lived in Lebanon. Nina Jidejian wrote a book on Tyre, Tyre Through the Ages (or via: amazon.co.uk)(1969), which is still considered the best, if not one of the best books on Tyre. The forward was written by Emir Maurice Chehab, Director General of Antiquities of Lebanon. Jidejian makes one thing very clear: Tyre proper always referred to the island and not to a mainland site.

Please note. I do not have a copy of either of these books. I found them quoted (for the most part) on Edward Babinski's and Dave E. Matson's site. If someone can show me that either of these two authors has been incorrectly quoted, I will withdraw the offending quotes here.
Otherwise, let's stay on topic.
P.S. IIDB member Sauron has a copy of Nina Jidejian's book. If he is reading this, perhaps he will jump in and help me out here.

Then of course there is the military consideration. Any military man worth his salt would not position his primary assests in such an indefensible position as an unprotected coastal stretch of flat land (on a beach in other words) when just 1200 feet across the water was an ideal defensive position in the form of an island with two excellent harbors and a seating capacity of some 30,000?


You have another problem Richbee. Ezekiel makes clear that we will never find a trace of Tyre ever again no matter where or how hard we look for it:
Ezekiel 26:21 (King James Version)
Yet we know today that not only does Tyre proper exist where it always has but the ruins of the old city of Tyre are not only below ground but are also above ground. In fact the U.N. has gone so far as to make the ruins a world heritage site. (witness also the many photos already posted here in this forum)


Here you must also do two things Richbee
With reference to biblical and modern photos and maps

1) Tell us where ancient Tyre was.

2) Tell us where modern Tyre is.

You make another claim:
(Emphasis mine.)

Wrong again. Wallace B. Fleming states in his The History of Tyre (or via: amazon.co.uk), that:
(Columbia University Press: New York, 1915, p.64).
Source: Farrell Till's The Prophecy Farce

Jidejian states:
This next quote from Jidejian makes for some particularly interesting reading as it reveals just how difficult Tyre's opulence (four centuries after JCs death) made believing Ezekiel's prophecy for Jerome:
Nina states here:
On another point. If Tyre was so totally demolished where were JC and Paul visiting in verses Mt.15:21, Mk.7:24, 31, Acts 21:3?

Finally Richbee, do something for your credibility. I suggest, if you really want serious dialogue here in this forum that you refrain from citing only Christian apologists. They are not reliable sources on their own. Why? Because they are hardly going to leap to the opportunity to report some piece of evidence that contradicts their claims and remember, they are making claims. You can see on their websites that they are pushing a a particular point of view, a achristian point of view. They are not reporting objectively. Look at this mission statment from Apologetics.com a site from which you have quoted:
This is dishonest. They are making an assumption - that the Gospels are true, which is anything but proven - and working backwards from it retrofitting the facts to conform to their view that the Gospel is true. This would never pass in any non-religious academic setting. They certainly would not accept a MUslim or Hindu doing the same thing with their beliefs.
In any non-Christian context people would be unlikely to accept your citations of solely Christian sources. Think about it. If you were discussing theological issues with a Muslim or a Hindu would you accept only Muslim or Hindu sources from them?
I am an academic. At the university level you would be told to rewrite your paper citing non-Christian sources if your bibliography on this topic was nothing but Christian apologists which your currently is. Anyone with an agenda who makes a claim must be supported by an unbiased source.

Jack the Bodiless

The island of Tyre had TWO ports. The southern one is still there, but it's silted up. The nothern port is STILL IN USE.

That's right: the "tiny little harbor for fishing boats" IS the northern (Sidonian) port of ancient Tyre! And it's the same size as it was then.

As for your apologetics quotes: let me spell out your main problem in words that you might understand.

The people you're quoting from are MORONS.

Furthermore, it's worth noting how these MORONS contradict each other, the Bible, and even themselves.
So, THIS moron thinks that Nebby took 13 years to conquer the mainland (Ushu), then successfully broke in to find it deserted.

Compare with:
So, THIS moron accepts that the 13-year siege was against the ISLAND (contradicting the previous moron), but falsely claimed that Tyre was staved into submission (Tyre was being resupplied by sea). He also admits that the island "was not pillaged", i.e. Nebby failed to destroy Tyre as prophesied.

And yet:
That "prophecy" ALSO failed.
So, here he ADMITS that Alexander didn't fulfil the prophecy, whereas other morons insist that he DID.
Tyre had a fishing fleet even in Ezekiel's time. It was ALREADY a place for the spreading of fishnets.

Ezekiel, however, was falsely prophesying that Tyre would become a "bare rock" suitable ONLY for the spreading of fishnets.
Here, Bloom is confirming that he is indeed a moron. As previously noted, Tyre and Sidon are "sister towns", and Tyre is no more "destroyed" than Sidon is. If the names were switched, the moron would simply claim that SIDON had been "destroyed" and "is no more".
Tyre is a FAILED prophecy. As such, it is worse than useless for apologists: it proves (yet again) that the Bible is bunk.

yummyfur

Thanks for the translation, dongiovanni1976x, though it seems this is a good excuse for me to get a Translation of Life of Alexander, as I think I need more context, to understand what's going on here.

Josephus is very unclear here, he could be using Dios in it's generic head god sense, or he could mean that in current Roman Tyre, this area is a Temple to Jupiter, or possibly that this is a Temple to Baal. Melqart is the head god of Tyre but the Greeks considered him equal to Hercules. Josephus description of the Temple of Jupiter matches Herodutus's description of Tyres Temple to Hercules. The Temple to Melqart/Hercules was on the island, as Xenephon tells us. Also if you know why Alexander decided to besiege Tyre, you'll know that it was because he wanted to sacrifice at this Temple(considered the oldest to Hercules), but the Tyrians decided after first agreeing, to say no when he actually got to the city. This is one of the reason that Alexander decided to do the whole land bridge siege, even though he already had the mainland, he needed to get the Island to get the Temple, as he was a bit neurotically obsessed with Hercules, and had limited amount of time because he wanted to conquer the whole known world, so couldn't wait for the traditional thirst method to work.

4.2.18 does not have Palaetyrus

"Ducibus deinde negotium datur, ut suos quisque castiget, satisque omnibus stimulatis opus orsus est. Magna vis saxorum ad manum erat Tyro vetere praebente: materies ex Libano monte ratibus et turribus faciendis
advehebatur."

While vetere does mean old, if Palaetyrus is the name for the mainland city, why would he call the mainland, just Tyre, and not use the supposedly well know name Palaetyrus, he had earlier used. I would really like to see other translations, does vetere need to be applied to Tyre? or could it be used for one of the other nouns in the sentence?