Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 09-25-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

The passage in Sulpicius is not a plausible origin for the one in Tacitus while Tacitus is a plausible source for Sulpicius.

Then, once again, why do no Christian writers between Tacitus and Sulpicius ever mention what Tacitus allegedly wrote.

I was wondering why we should think that this is significant (presuming it is true, which it may not be, unless either of us is claiming to have checked).

Let's ask ourselves why they should quote him. Who knew Tacitus? Which extant writers knew Tacitus? Why 'must' they refer to it? Is our expectation evidence, and if so, how do we show this?

How well quoted are first century authors in general between 100 and 350? Unless we can show general knowledge of Tacitus, surely this argument collapses immediately? Unless I am missing something, of course.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle · 09-27-2007, 10:58 AM

I should withdraw my claim (in discussion with spin) about Dio Cassius never mentioning Christians. There appears to be at least one mention of Christins in his work.

In the epitome to book 73 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/73*.html we have

Quote:

There was a certain Marcia, the mistress of Quadratus (one of the men slain at this time), and Eclectus, his cubicularius; the latter became the cubicularius of Commodus also, and the former, first the emperor's mistress and later the wife of Eclectus, and she saw them also perish by violence. The tradition is that she greatly favoured the Christians and rendered them many kindnesses, inasmuch as she could do anything with Commodus.

This seems to be from Dio Cassius not the epitomist hence he did occasionally mention Christians.

Andrew Criddle

spin · 09-27-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I should withdraw my claim (in discussion with spin) about Dio Cassius never mentioning Christians. There appears to be at least one mention of Christins in his work.

In the epitome to book 73 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/73*.html we have

Quote:

There was a certain Marcia, the mistress of Quadratus (one of the men slain at this time), and Eclectus, his cubicularius; the latter became the cubicularius of Commodus also, and the former, first the emperor's mistress and later the wife of Eclectus, and she saw them also perish by violence. The tradition is that she greatly favoured the Christians and rendered them many kindnesses, inasmuch as she could do anything with Commodus.

This seems to be from Dio Cassius not the epitomist hence he did occasionally mention Christians.

Good find. My first reaction is that it is another nail in the Eusebius invented christianity coffin, but then, the epitome's obviously the work of Eusebius's henchmen. (Shakes head.)

spin

Ben C Smith · 09-27-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

My first reaction is that it is another nail in the Eusebius invented christianity coffin....

A coffin implies that something has died, and death implies that something was first alive. I am not aware that the Eusebius-invented-Christianity idea was ever actually alive.

Ben.

Toto · 09-27-2007, 12:38 PM

Cubicularius sounds like it ought to be a corporate drone working in a cubicle, but it is defined here (at least in regard to the popes) as

Quote:

valet-de-chambre, bed-chamber servant; chamberlain, head of chamber servants.

"There were various kinds of cubicularii, and they had many functions, which generally centered around personal service to the pope; see Hoffman, 1:160-61, especially n. 4. [W. von Hoffman, Forschungen zur Geschichte de kurian Behörden vom Schisma bis zur Reformation (Rome, 1914)] ... Hoffman distinguishes three different types of cubicularii. The third type took care of personal service to the pope in the papal chamber (1:160-61 n.4). According to Hoffman, it was only in during the reign of Pope Sixtus IV (1471-84) that this branch of the office was divided into two types. There were then the cubicularii extra cameram and the cubicularii secreti, the latter of whom took special care of the pope's personal needs (even the pope's barber, e.g., was among this number). But this did not mean that those who held these offices had unimportant positions; they were close to the pope and often had considerable influence (ibid.)." - Celenza, 1999, p. 181, note 44.

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