dzim77

Hello,

Sorry to take up space here -

I am looking to begin research on Isa 52:13-53:12. Specifically regarding the questions - 'Is this text describing a suffering Messiah figure?' and 'Is this text describing an atoning Messiah figure?'

Can anyone point me to the standard scholarship on this topic as a starting point... plus any personal favorite sources you might have. (including, of course, sources covering the Servant Songs)

Any help is much appreciated! [And any comments on the topic would be interesting to hear ]

ps... While you're at it, I hope to do a similar study on Zechariah 12:10-13:9.

Thank you.

Amaleq13

You might want to take a look at this Peter Kirby thread on the same passages:

Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12

stuart shepherd

You may want to search for verses in the OT with the phrase "my servant" and you will find about a dozen times where Israel is identifed as God's servant.

But here is my favorite verse......
Isaiah 53:9 (New American Standard Bible)
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

Can you see the problem? The fabricators got it backwards. Jesus was buried in a RICH man's grave, but was with the WICKED in his death.

Stuart Shepherd

dzim77

Thanks Amaleq!

It seems here are many good citations in that thread for starters. I obviously haven't mastered the art of searching these forums for helpful threads yet

dzim77

Hi Stuart,

Actually, I don't see the problem.

Reading the version you've posted, someone taking this verse as a specific prophesy of Jesus' death and burial as described in the gospels would say that:

1. 'his grave was assigned with wicked men' = Jesus' body typically would have been 'assigned' to be thrown in the common grave along with the criminals crucified along side him

2. Yet He was with a rich man in His death,=Yet, in his actual death, Jesus was laid in a rich man's tomb

Here's the NRSV version:

They made his grave with the wicked
and his tomb with the rich,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

To go any further you would have to look at the Hebrew.

stuart shepherd

The gospels say that Jesus was buried with the rich (Joseph of Arimathea's tomb)
But Isaiah says the servant was buried with the wicked.

The Gospels say that Jesus died with the wicked (The two evildoers)
But Isaiah says the servant died with the rich.

The NRSV tries to hide the meaning. They mistranslate to hide the defect.

Look at the KJV

Isaiah 53:9 (King James Version)
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Or look at the NASB which I quoted in my orginal post.
Isaiah 53:9 (New American Standard Bible)
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

Stuart Shepherd

Jayrok

Articles on Isaiah 53

Here is a Jewish perspective on the suffering servant in Isaiah. Note this is the first of a six part series. You can see the other parts at the bottom of the page in the drop down menu.

dzim77

Hi Stuart,

My point was that the text can be taken either way, depending on how you read it and which English version you use.

As I said - unless you can provide evidence from the Hebew to support your assertion, you really can't say anything conclusive here.

Thanks.

dzim77

thanks

manwithdream

I wanted to recommend the same site as Jayrok, but he already did that. Here is the front of the site where there are other good Jewish anti-missionary articles like Zechariah 12:10, etc.

http://www.virtualyeshiva.com/counter-index.html

Manwithdream