Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jedi Mind Trick · 03-05-2007, 05:25 AM

Assuming a historical Jesus:
The claim has been made that he was poor and from a poor family. How do we know this? Because spoke against the rich?

Joseph was a carpenter by trade and I've read where he could have been employed as a carpenter to work on the renovations of the temple. Surely he would have been handsomely compensated for such work.

Anyway, what do we know?

Malachi151 · 03-05-2007, 05:51 AM

I hate all of these speculations, which are extrapolations built on assumptions, built on fantasy.

Where does the idea that Joseph was a carpenter come from? One place, Matthew:

Quote:

Matthew 13:55
"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

And were does this claim in Matthew come from?

Quote:

Mark 6:3
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

And where does this idea in Mark come from?

Quote:

Proverbs 8:
22The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of long ago.
23Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth—
26when he had not yet made earth and fields,
or the world’s first bits of soil.
27When he established the heavens, I was there,
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
29when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;

Jesus was called a carpenter in early tradition as in a metaphorical sense as part of the view that Christ had existed from the beginning of the creation and that he played a role in the creation. We see this idea in the introduction of John.

This view of Christ as metaphysical carpenter then found its way in Mark and became historicized, and then got mixed up by Matthew, and this is a perfect example of how these ideas shifted and changed and grew over time, ending up creating huge traditions that people pile all types of nonsense on top of and jump to huge assumptions from.

Jedi Mind Trick · 03-05-2007, 05:55 AM

But where do we get the idea that he was poor?

Malachi151 · 03-05-2007, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

But where do we get the idea that he was poor?

Seems to be just assumed. He advocated for the poor in the stories, just like "God" does in all of the Old Testament writings, and he talked about selling all of your goods, and having no worldly possessions, etc.

If he were historical, which I don't think, this seems to be a flimsy basis for calling him or his family truly poor. Look at Vladamir Lenin, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Mao Zedong, etc., etc.

They were all advocates for the poor and lower classes and social justice, and all came from wealthy families.

Dean Anderson · 03-05-2007, 06:12 AM

Jesus (and Joseph) are both variously described as being a τεκτων, which I have variously seen translated as "carpenter", "labourer", "artisan", "craftsman" and so on.

Does anyone know any details about Palestinian society in regards to this?

Would τεκτων be referring to a lowly labourer (implying a lower-class background with little chance of education and literacy) or would it be referring to a more respected and affluent craftsman (implying skill, business acumen and a far greater chance of education and literacy)? Or could it refer to either?

Jedi Mind Trick · 03-05-2007, 06:36 AM

Excellent question Dean Anderson.
Anyone? Anyone?

MortalWombat · 03-05-2007, 07:20 AM

Was he really such an advocate of the poor?

Quote:

Mark 14:
4 Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, "Why this waste of perfume? 5 It could have been sold for more than a year's wages and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.

6 "Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 7 The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.

It almost sounds more like a modern televangelist justifying his reasons for having a big house and fancy car.

wordy · 03-05-2007, 07:44 AM

Could it be the text writers way of being "spin" doctors. They wanted to portray Jesus as a poor in spirit and from a common background so the masses could identify with him. He was one of us. Like when communists say their leaders was working class heroes. Bruce Springsteen and such.

ApostateAbe · 03-05-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackwater

Assuming a historical Jesus:
The claim has been made that he was poor and from a poor family. How do we know this? Because spoke against the rich?

Joseph was a carpenter by trade and I've read where he could have been employed as a carpenter to work on the renovations of the temple. Surely he would have been handsomely compensated for such work.

Anyway, what do we know?

According to Bart Ehrman, the word that is translated, "carpenter," in the gospels is actually more like a hand laborer with wood. He didn't work on the temple, and he didn't work on fine cabinets. He lived in a small town fashioning farm equipment and/or lumber.

But that may not have been the circumstance for Jesus. Jesus made his living leading a successful cult. Successful cult leaders are not known for their poverty.

Lugubert · 03-05-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean Anderson

Jesus (and Joseph) are both variously described as being a τεκτων, which I have variously seen translated as "carpenter", "labourer", "artisan", "craftsman" and so on.

And so on = for example architect or stonemason according to my dictionaries.

03-05-2007, 05:25 AM	#1
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Was Jesus Poor? Assuming a historical Jesus: The claim has been made that he was poor and from a poor family. How do we know this? Because spoke against the rich? Joseph was a carpenter by trade and I've read where he could have been employed as a carpenter to work on the renovations of the temple. Surely he would have been handsomely compensated for such work. Anyway, what do we know?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-05-2007, 05:55 AM	#3
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	But where do we get the idea that he was poor?

03-05-2007, 06:12 AM	#5
Dean Anderson Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 6,947	Jesus (and Joseph) are both variously described as being a τεκτων, which I have variously seen translated as "carpenter", "labourer", "artisan", "craftsman" and so on. Does anyone know any details about Palestinian society in regards to this? Would τεκτων be referring to a lowly labourer (implying a lower-class background with little chance of education and literacy) or would it be referring to a more respected and affluent craftsman (implying skill, business acumen and a far greater chance of education and literacy)? Or could it refer to either?

03-05-2007, 06:36 AM	#6
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Excellent question Dean Anderson. Anyone? Anyone?

03-05-2007, 07:44 AM	#8
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Could it be the text writers way of being "spin" doctors. They wanted to portray Jesus as a poor in spirit and from a common background so the masses could identify with him. He was one of us. Like when communists say their leaders was working class heroes. Bruce Springsteen and such.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.