Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 06-26-2004, 09:11 PM

Does anyone have any information about Freke&Gandy's amulet of Orpheus being supposedly crucified, that they use on the cover of their book, "The Jesus Mysteries"?

They said that it was in the Museum of Berlin, but disappeared during WWII. However, they provide no named source for the amulet. In fact, the only thing they say about it is:

Quote:

we came across a small picture tucked away in the appendices of an old academic book

They give no other details about the "old academic book", not even an author or title. They do reproduce a photograph of the amulet, and I can't believe that they just made it up.

Has anyone ever heard anything about this amulet?

GakuseiDon · 06-26-2004, 11:15 PM

The only other thing that F&G say about the amulet is that it is dated to the 3rd C CE. They give no reason how they got this date, but I assume they got it from the "old academic book".

There are lots of references to this amulet on the net, but most seem to have their origin in TJM. The rest don't have any further information, though some give different dates, like 2nd C AD and 3rd C BC.

Vorkosigan · 06-26-2004, 11:58 PM

PM Bede. I recall that he had looked into the matter.

Vorkosigan

Toto · 06-27-2004, 01:16 AM

That picture on the front of the Jesus Mysteries - thread started by Bede, contains some good information, including a communication from Freke.

GakuseiDon · 06-27-2004, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

That picture on the front of the Jesus Mysteries - thread started by Bede, contains some good information, including a communication from Freke.

Thanks, Toto! You are always so helpful for finding previous threads on a subject. (How on earth do you find all these old threads? I did a search on iidb.org, but found nothing)

It does indeed look like an anchor cross. Freke's comment that "we are not making any spectacular claims about the amulet at all" is consistent with their style throughout the book. They leave that up to the reader to assume. Certainly a lot of others who have it on their own websites have little doubts about what it means.

But AFAICS, they still haven't said anything about "the old academic book" in which they found the image. Has Freke or Gandy ever given that information out on the JM forum? The lack of title, author and location seems a glaring and obvious omission from their book. Surely even TJM supporters would have asked F&G about it?

Hmmm... Perhaps I'll need to follow this up with F&G themselves.

07-01-2004, 08:46 AM

Well, I emailed them and Peter Gandy said the amulet is featured in the following books:

Guthrie W K C, "Orpheus and Greek Religion" Princeton University Press, 1952.
Eisler R, "Orpheus the Fisher" Kessinger Publishing (reprints), first published 1920.

So, it's off to the library ot have a look. I doubt we will find much more than we knew already but there might be some interesting commentary.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

flintknapper · 07-01-2004, 12:23 PM

I do quite a bit of stone carving, and that amulet looks modern made to me. Look how crisp the edges of the incised designs are. The stars at the top have fine detail, and these would surely show wear in a 2000 yr. old piece. I would also expect to see much wear and possibly discoloration near the indentations on either side toward the top. These "notches" are presumably for suspension.
While it was pictured in a 1920's book, this is still no guarantee that it is authentic. Thousands of "authentic Indian artifacts" were made during the depression of the 30's in the US by clever poor people trying to get a dollar to buy food. City folks with money that came to the country to buy "Injun rocks" for 10-cents on the dollar got a bit more (or less) than they bargained for.
I'd love to examine this piece in person, but alas, this purported evidence doesn't seem to be available. I may have to make up an amulet like that one just for fun.

GakuseiDon · 07-01-2004, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

Well, I emailed them and Peter Gandy said the amulet is featured in the following books:

Guthrie W K C, "Orpheus and Greek Religion" Princeton University Press, 1952.
Eisler R, "Orpheus the Fisher" Kessinger Publishing (reprints), first published 1920.

So, it's off to the library ot have a look. I doubt we will find much more than we knew already but there might be some interesting commentary.

Great! F&G say that the amulet was held in the Museum of Berlin and "lost in WWII". It'll be interesting to see what those books say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintknapper

I do quite a bit of stone carving, and that amulet looks modern made to me. Look how crisp the edges of the incised designs are. The stars at the top have fine detail, and these would surely show wear in a 2000 yr. old piece. I would also expect to see much wear and possibly discoloration near the indentations on either side toward the top. These "notches" are presumably for suspension.

I think the cover is a drawing or at least a touched-up photo. They reproduce an actual photograph of the amulet in their book, and the detailing is a lot less sharp. (The representation on the cover isn't substantially different to the photo). The photo has a ruler laid alongside the amulet, and shows the amulet to be just under 1.5 cm or 1.5 inches (scale not given) long.

Toto · 07-01-2004, 03:57 PM

Guthrie W K C, "Orpheus and Greek Religion" Princeton University Press, 1952

can be searched on Amazon. A line drawing of the amulet is at p. 265 (search for "amulet")

Text p. 265-6:

Quote:

To this part of the inquiry belongs a mention of the curious and much-discussed seal or amulet in Berlin.[16] The design on this seal (fig. 19), which is dated in the third or fourth centuries A.D., shows a crucified man. Above the cross are a crescent moon and seven starts, and across and below it is the legend ORFEOS BAKKIKOS. This has usually been supposed to be the work of some Gnostic sect exhibiting a syncretism of Orphic and Christian ideas. Just as Christ is to be seen in Christian monuments with the attributes of Orpheus, so here, by a tribute from the other side, Orpheus is represented in the attitude of Christ. Eisler (Orpheus, 338ff) has with great ingenuity argued a purely pagan origin for the design. Arguing by analogy from an isolated tradition perserved in Diodoros (3. 65) that Lykurgus, the enemy of Dionysos, was crucified by the god, and from stories that DIonysos himself and other Dionysiac figures were 'bound to the tree', he suggests that there was also an old tradition of the crucifixion of Orpheus. It is only an accident that in the wreck of Greek ligerature which has come down to us no memory of it has been preserved. The strongest point in favor of this is that Christian representations of the Crucifixion in art do not go back beyond the fifth or sixth century. It had of course a tremendous prejudice to overcome--the historical founder of a new religion depicted as a common malefactor on the gallows. Yet if we are to believe that our complete ignorance of the crudicfied Orpheus is an accident, it is surely not too much to believe that our lack of earlier representations of the Christian Crucifixion may be an accident too. It is clear that no story of the crucificion of Orpheus or Dionysos was known to Justin Martyr. . .

Eisler R, "Orpheus the Fisher" Kessinger Publishing (reprints), first published 1920.

GakuseiDon · 07-01-2004, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Guthrie W K C, "Orpheus and Greek Religion" Princeton University Press, 1952

can be searched on Amazon. A line drawing of the amulet is at p. 265 (search for "amulet")

Text p. 265-6:

Eisler R, "Orpheus the Fisher" Kessinger Publishing (reprints), first published 1920.

Thanks Toto, as always!

Both books are listed in F&G's bibliography, though they don't cite either with regards to the amulet. I think we can see why - Guthrie goes on to quote Justin Martyr as saying "the pagans never imitated the crucifixion" and says "this testimony [by Justin Martyr] goes further to weaken a case for which not even its learned author liked to claim volle Sicherfeit" - though Guthrie himself finds the amulet of "the greatest interest" and "deserves to be more widely known".

(Ed to add) Guthrie says that the amulet is in the Museum of Berlin, but I see nothing there that says that the amulet disappeared around WWII, and Eisler (1920s) is too early to have known. So I wonder where that piece of information came from?

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06-26-2004, 11:15 PM	#2
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	The only other thing that F&G say about the amulet is that it is dated to the 3rd C CE. They give no reason how they got this date, but I assume they got it from the "old academic book". There are lots of references to this amulet on the net, but most seem to have their origin in TJM. The rest don't have any further information, though some give different dates, like 2nd C AD and 3rd C BC.

06-26-2004, 11:58 PM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	PM Bede. I recall that he had looked into the matter. Vorkosigan

06-27-2004, 01:16 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	That picture on the front of the Jesus Mysteries - thread started by Bede, contains some good information, including a communication from Freke.

07-01-2004, 08:46 AM	#6
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Well, I emailed them and Peter Gandy said the amulet is featured in the following books: Guthrie W K C, "Orpheus and Greek Religion" Princeton University Press, 1952. Eisler R, "Orpheus the Fisher" Kessinger Publishing (reprints), first published 1920. So, it's off to the library ot have a look. I doubt we will find much more than we knew already but there might be some interesting commentary. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

07-01-2004, 12:23 PM	#7
flintknapper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: A Windswept Hill on the Prairie Peninsula Posts: 1,073	I do quite a bit of stone carving, and that amulet looks modern made to me. Look how crisp the edges of the incised designs are. The stars at the top have fine detail, and these would surely show wear in a 2000 yr. old piece. I would also expect to see much wear and possibly discoloration near the indentations on either side toward the top. These "notches" are presumably for suspension. While it was pictured in a 1920's book, this is still no guarantee that it is authentic. Thousands of "authentic Indian artifacts" were made during the depression of the 30's in the US by clever poor people trying to get a dollar to buy food. City folks with money that came to the country to buy "Injun rocks" for 10-cents on the dollar got a bit more (or less) than they bargained for. I'd love to examine this piece in person, but alas, this purported evidence doesn't seem to be available. I may have to make up an amulet like that one just for fun.

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