Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 12-21-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

The Sermon on the Mount criticizes Pauline Christianity. Matthew 5:19 might be a play on words (a pun) directed at the word ‘Paul’.

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven …

Compare Strongs G1646 with Strong's G3972.

So, Paul was just an adjective.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

‘Paul’ taught them to call “Lord Lord” in Romans 10:9, 13; and to prophesy and perform works in his name in Romans 12:6; and 1 Corinthians 12:9, 28-30, 13:9, 14:5, 24, 31-39.

The Sermon on the Mount criticizes Pauline Christianity. The play on words in Matthew 5:19 is just icing on the cake.

spamandham · 12-21-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Where is the evidence, what source, which book, which writer of antiquity clearly and unambiguously claimed Paul was first or before Jesus of Nazareth was claimed to be on earth?

Why must Paul precede Jesus in order for his writings to precede the Gospels? :huh:

aa5874 · 12-22-2008, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Where is the evidence, what source, which book, which writer of antiquity clearly and unambiguously claimed Paul was first or before Jesus of Nazareth was claimed to be on earth?

Why must Paul precede Jesus in order for his writings to precede the Gospels? :huh:

Do you know of any writer of antiquity that contradicted Acts of the Apostles with respect to Saul/Paul?

There are those who claim Paul wrote or preached about a Jesus who was never on earth and that it was the gospel writers that used Paul to construct their physical Jesus.

I am trying to find writings of antiquity that supported such a claim.

S.C.Carlson · 12-22-2008, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Paul may be last of the apostles, but the gospels were not written by the apostles.

But, where can I find any information of antiquity about Paul where it is claimed he did preach Christ first, before Christ was made flesh?

What does this non sequitur have to do with the gospels' being written after Paul?

Stephen

aa5874 · 12-22-2008, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, where can I find any information of antiquity about Paul where it is claimed he did preach Christ first, before Christ was made flesh?

What does this non sequitur have to do with the gospels' being written after Paul?

Stephen

What you consider to be a non-sequitor cannot alter the actual chronology of Paul and the writings of the gospels.

Do you have any information where any writer of antiquity has contradicted Acts of the Apostles with respect to Saul/Paul or the church writers?

Some posters here have claimed that Paul wrote or preached Jesus when Jesus was not even on earth or had never died.

Acts claimed Jesus had died and ascended to heaven before Paul was converted, and Eusebius claimed Paul was aware of gLuke. According to Eusebius, Paul called the gospel of Luke "my gospel". See Church History 3.4.8

Doug Shaver · 12-22-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Any information that supports a claim you don't believe, you will judge to be not credible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Total nonsense.

Could be, but it's consistent with everything I've seen you post so far. I'll believe it's nonsense when I see evidence that it's nonsense.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-22-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

According to Eusebius, Paul called the gospel of Luke "my gospel". See Church History 3.4.8

Actually what Eusebius is doing in EH 3.4.8 is noting that others say that Paul meant to refer to Luke's Gospel when he said "according to my Gospel."

φασὶν δ' ὡς ἄρα τοῦ κατ' αὐτὸν εὐαγγελίου μνημονεύειν ὁ �*αῦλος εἴωθεν, ὁπηνίκα ὡς περὶ ἰδίου τινὸς εὐαγγελίου γράφων ἔλεγεν· «κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγελιόν μου».

As you can see from the text and it's context:

Quote:

καὶ ὁ Λουκᾶς ἐν ταῖς �*ράξεσιν τοὺς γνωρίμους αὐτοῦ κατα
λ�*γων ἐξ ὀνόματος αὐτῶν μνημονεύει. Τιμόθεός γε μὴν τῆς
ἐν Ἐφ�*σῳ παροικίας ἱστορεῖται πρῶτος τὴν ἐπισκοπὴν εἰληχ�*
ναι, ὡς καὶ Τίτος τῶν ἐπὶ Κρήτης ἐκκλησιῶν. Λουκᾶς δὲ τὸ
μὲν γ�*νος ὢν τῶν ἀπ' Ἀντιοχείας, τὴν ἐπιστήμην δὲ ἰατρός, τὰ
πλεῖστα συγγεγονὼς τῷ �*αύλῳ, καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς δὲ οὐ παρ�*ργως
τῶν ἀποστόλων ὡμιληκώς, ἧς ἀπὸ τούτων προσεκτήσατο ψυχῶν
θεραπευτικῆς ἐν δυσὶν ἡμῖν ὑποδείγματα θεοπνεύστοις κατ�*λιπεν
βιβλίοις, τῷ τε εὐαγγελίῳ, ὃ καὶ χαράξαι μαρτύρεται καθ' ἃ
παρ�*δοσαν αὐτῷ οἱ ἀπ' ἀρχῆς αὐτόπται καὶ ὑπηρ�*ται γενόμενοι
τοῦ λόγου, οἷς καί φησιν ἔτ' ἄνωθεν ἅπασι παρηκολουθηκ�*ναι,
καὶ ταῖς τῶν ἀποστόλων �*ράξεσιν, ἃς οὐκ�*τι δι' ἀκοῆς, ὀφθαλμοῖς
δὲ παραλαβὼν συνετάξατο. φασὶν δ' ὡς ἄρα τοῦ κατ' αὐτὸν
εὐαγγελίου μνημονεύειν ὁ �*αῦλος εἴωθεν, ὁπηνίκα ὡς περὶ
ἰδίου τινὸς εὐαγγελίου γράφων ἔλεγεν· «κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγ�*λιόν
μου».

Eusebius himself seems intent to dispute this claim.

Or is there something in this text that I missed?

Jeffrey

aa5874 · 12-22-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

According to Eusebius, Paul called the gospel of Luke "my gospel". See Church History 3.4.8

Actually what Eusebius is doing in EH 3.4.8 is noting that others say that Paul meant to refer to Luke's Gospel when he said "according to my Gospel."

Well, this implies that Paul was aware of gLuke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Church History 3.4.8

[b] And they say that Paul meant to refer to Luke's Gospel whenever, as if speaking of some gospel of his own, he used the words, according to my Gospel.

And there are letters with the name Paul using the words "according to my gospel", so he meant Luke's Gospel, according to the writings of Eusebius. See Romans and Timothy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

φασὶν δ' ὡς ἄρα τοῦ κατ' αὐτὸν εὐαγγελίου μνημονεύειν ὁ �*αῦλος εἴωθεν, ὁπηνίκα ὡς περὶ ἰδίου τινὸς εὐαγγελίου γράφων ἔλεγεν· «κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγελιόν μου».

As you can see from the text and it's context:

Quote:

καὶ ὁ Λουκᾶς ἐν ταῖς �*ράξεσιν τοὺς γνωρίμους αὐτοῦ κατα
λ�*γων ἐξ ὀνόματος αὐτῶν μνημονεύει. Τιμόθεός γε μὴν τῆς
ἐν Ἐφ�*σῳ παροικίας ἱστορεῖται πρῶτος τὴν ἐπισκοπὴν εἰληχ�*
ναι, ὡς καὶ Τίτος τῶν ἐπὶ Κρήτης ἐκκλησιῶν. Λουκᾶς δὲ τὸ
μὲν γ�*νος ὢν τῶν ἀπ' Ἀντιοχείας, τὴν ἐπιστήμην δὲ ἰατρός, τὰ
πλεῖστα συγγεγονὼς τῷ �*αύλῳ, καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς δὲ οὐ παρ�*ργως
τῶν ἀποστόλων ὡμιληκώς, ἧς ἀπὸ τούτων προσεκτήσατο ψυχῶν
θεραπευτικῆς ἐν δυσὶν ἡμῖν ὑποδείγματα θεοπνεύστοις κατ�*λιπεν
βιβλίοις, τῷ τε εὐαγγελίῳ, ὃ καὶ χαράξαι μαρτύρεται καθ' ἃ
παρ�*δοσαν αὐτῷ οἱ ἀπ' ἀρχῆς αὐτόπται καὶ ὑπηρ�*ται γενόμενοι
τοῦ λόγου, οἷς καί φησιν ἔτ' ἄνωθεν ἅπασι παρηκολουθηκ�*ναι,
καὶ ταῖς τῶν ἀποστόλων �*ράξεσιν, ἃς οὐκ�*τι δι' ἀκοῆς, ὀφθαλμοῖς
δὲ παραλαβὼν συνετάξατο. φασὶν δ' ὡς ἄρα τοῦ κατ' αὐτὸν
εὐαγγελίου μνημονεύειν ὁ �*αῦλος εἴωθεν, ὁπηνίκα ὡς περὶ
ἰδίου τινὸς εὐαγγελίου γράφων ἔλεγεν· «κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγ�*λιόν
μου».

Eusebius himself seems intent to dispute this claim.

Or is there something in this text that I missed?

Jeffrey

Now, where did Eusebius dispute the claim that "according to my Gospel" meant Luke's Gospel?

Did you copy that passage from a copy or is it an original? And you probably missed that many here read English, Spanish, French, Italian and Australian.

Transient · 12-22-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

According to Eusebius, Paul called the gospel of Luke "my gospel". See Church History 3.4.8

Actually what Eusebius is doing in EH 3.4.8 is noting that others say that Paul meant to refer to Luke's Gospel when he said "according to my Gospel."

φασὶν δ' ὡς ἄρα τοῦ κατ' αὐτὸν εὐαγγελίου μνημονεύειν ὁ �*αῦλος εἴωθεν, ὁπηνίκα ὡς περὶ ἰδίου τινὸς εὐαγγελίου γράφων ἔλεγεν· «κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγελιόν μου».

As you can see from the text and it's context:

Quote:

καὶ ὁ Λουκᾶς ἐν ταῖς �*ράξεσιν τοὺς γνωρίμους αὐτοῦ κατα
λ�*γων ἐξ ὀνόματος αὐτῶν μνημονεύει. Τιμόθεός γε μὴν τῆς
ἐν Ἐφ�*σῳ παροικίας ἱστορεῖται πρῶτος τὴν ἐπισκοπὴν εἰληχ�*
ναι, ὡς καὶ Τίτος τῶν ἐπὶ Κρήτης ἐκκλησιῶν. Λουκᾶς δὲ τὸ
μὲν γ�*νος ὢν τῶν ἀπ' Ἀντιοχείας, τὴν ἐπιστήμην δὲ ἰατρός, τὰ
πλεῖστα συγγεγονὼς τῷ �*αύλῳ, καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς δὲ οὐ παρ�*ργως
τῶν ἀποστόλων ὡμιληκώς, ἧς ἀπὸ τούτων προσεκτήσατο ψυχῶν
θεραπευτικῆς ἐν δυσὶν ἡμῖν ὑποδείγματα θεοπνεύστοις κατ�*λιπεν
βιβλίοις, τῷ τε εὐαγγελίῳ, ὃ καὶ χαράξαι μαρτύρεται καθ' ἃ
παρ�*δοσαν αὐτῷ οἱ ἀπ' ἀρχῆς αὐτόπται καὶ ὑπηρ�*ται γενόμενοι
τοῦ λόγου, οἷς καί φησιν ἔτ' ἄνωθεν ἅπασι παρηκολουθηκ�*ναι,
καὶ ταῖς τῶν ἀποστόλων �*ράξεσιν, ἃς οὐκ�*τι δι' ἀκοῆς, ὀφθαλμοῖς
δὲ παραλαβὼν συνετάξατο. φασὶν δ' ὡς ἄρα τοῦ κατ' αὐτὸν
εὐαγγελίου μνημονεύειν ὁ �*αῦλος εἴωθεν, ὁπηνίκα ὡς περὶ
ἰδίου τινὸς εὐαγγελίου γράφων ἔλεγεν· «κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγ�*λιόν
μου».

Eusebius himself seems intent to dispute this claim.

Or is there something in this text that I missed?

Jeffrey

Maybe instead of bringing up a large family and working, I should have studied 23 million languages , then I could have mixed it with the best.
I could have been one of the elite biblical scholars with letters after my name.
Could you translate that into Klion please?

Huon · 12-23-2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

EH 3.4.5. Luke also in the Acts speaks of his friends, and mentions them by name.

EH 3.4.6. Timothy, so it is recorded, was the first to receive the episcopate of the parish in Ephesus, Titus of the churches in Crete.

EH 3.4.7. But Luke, who was of Antiochian parentage and a physician by profession, and who was especially intimate with Paul and well acquainted with the rest of the apostles, has left us, in two inspired books, proofs of that spiritual healing art which he learned from them. One of these books is the Gospel, which he testifies that he wrote as those who were from the beginning eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered unto him, all of whom, as he says, he followed accurately from the first. [Luke 1:2-3] The other book is the Acts of the Apostles which he composed not from the accounts of others, but from what he had seen himself.

EH 3.4.8. And they say that Paul meant to refer to Luke's Gospel wherever, as if speaking of some gospel of his own, he used the words, "according to my Gospel."

Version of the Catholic Encyclopedia, see Church Fathers, Eusebius. [Luke 1:2-3] is a reference, and does not belong to the original text.

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