EarlOfLade

And that is why Christmas is "Jul" in Norwegian rather than "Kristmesse" as Christmas means.

joedad

Roger,

Academically speaking, if Christianity celebrated living in houses instead of in caves, would you see your domicile as a Christian invention? Would you need to see ancient evidence that Christians borrowed this celebration from a contemporaneous culture before you agreed that living in houses is not a Christian first?

I know you are simply asking that folks apply a bit of rigor before making their claims, and not in fact arguing that celebrating the winter solstice is a Christian invention.

Roger Pearse

You're quite right. Indeed, I'm not seeing much evidence that even the oft-repeated claim about celebrating the winter solstice is based on knowledge, actually. What we need to see is more *facts* and less assertion, isn't it?

Now I can't speak for anyone else, but the lack of solid facts on all this, and the overflowing plenitude of "Of course it happened like this... are you stupid or something?" says to me very loudly that we are dealing with modern legend credulously believed, not with anything factual. Perhaps there is a core of truth to this legend. Or perhaps not. But whatever the facts, let's have the facts.

It is, of course, entirely possible that someone decided in Rome ca. 330 to situate Christmas on 25 Dec. for the purpose of preventing Christians from being led astray by all the partying. Augustine says something like this, half a century later, and so does ps. Chrysostom in De nativitate (although I have no copy of this). Nor is it improbable. But who cares whether you or I find this 'probable'? Surely only one question matters: what are the facts upon which any statement must be based? What does the ancient data actually say?

And this, I find, people do not know. I know just enough to recognise some downright lies in the legend (repeated mostly in good faith, of course), and to be terribly suspicious about the rest.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

dude guy

Given the evidence, it's just hard not to believe that the Jesus story was ripped off of other pagan mythologies in the easter Meditteranean area. Please see my very simple page on this matter.

EarlOfLade

Norway was christened during 1000 -1200 AD. "Jul" had been celebrated for a long time, mostly due to the fact that it marks the change in day length. It has nothing to do with religion and the supposed birth of jesus was stacked on top of the old rituals. Even in the religious stories, you can see that he was not born during winter.

Roger Pearse

You have, of course, CHECKED the statements on this page against the ancient evidence? :devil3:

All the best,

Roger Pearse

joedad

Speaking personally, that’s a no-brainer. Humans are as much in tune and dependent upon seasonal fluctuations as other organisms. We are certainly not unique in this regard. The ancient data is far more ancient than recorded human history. It is as if one were to claim that the arctic tern invented migration, which was then copied by the wildebeest, humpback whale, monarch butterfly, etc.