Soul Invictus

I'll make this OP short. I'm looking for some informative data on how both customs were based on or inspired by pagan practices/customs. I was surprised today to hear a coworker of mine (who is a pastor) to state that he didn't celebrate Christmas because it's not biblical and that he knew that many of the practices were based on pagan values (Christmas tree, time of year, etc)

Toto

The more strict Protestants have always taken that position. The Puritans banned Christmas because of its pagan roots. Catholics see this position as anti-Catholicism.

You can google Christmas pagan and take your pick of sites.

Religious Tolerance on Christmas trees among other Christmas pagan themes

Here's a Christian site and a more lurid Christian site from Demon Buster.

Roger Pearse

Unfortunately most of what is stated is untrue, misleading or slanted. Believe *nothing* that doesn't have a proper reference to the ancient sources.

(From a quick look, this eems more like "Religious Intolerance on Christmas Trees", unless the word is being used in a PC way -- "you must accept our opinion or be victimised as 'intolerant'").

Very little of this page is likely to be relevant; in the absence of sources much of it is probably untrue. Whatever semitic tree-worship customs may have been in the second millennium BC, our Christmas trees do not derive from it.

This is terrible stuff, unfortunately, and without writing an essay it is difficult to highlight just how many errors of fact and attempts to mislead it contains.

I was amused/saddened to read that "Mithra"'s birthday was celebrated on "Dies Natalis Solic Invite" [sic], tho.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Chris Weimer

:rolling:

rlogan

Winter Solstice celebrations predate Christianity by millenia.

Google "winter solstice" and "archaeology.

There's a 5,000 year old site in Newgrange, Ireland that you can enter a lottery for to sit in the chamber when the winter solstice sun fills up the room.

Writer@Large

Go to the library or bookstore and search out Ronald Hutton's Stations of the Sun (or via: amazon.co.uk). It has what you're looking for. It's thoroughly researched, and it references more primary & scholarly sources than any other source on the subject I've ever found.

--W@L

Roger Pearse

The difficulty is in tying such vague stuff to the Christian celebration of Christmas (as we are silently invited to do -- don't you hate it when arguments are not actually made)?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Tangent

I heard caroling was based on the old practice of going door to door in winter to check for dead neighbours.

The Yule stuff is pretty straightforward. From Wikipedia...

I prefer Saturnalia myself

gstafleu

OK, let's try to get less vague.

1. Christian Christmas is celebrated on Dec 25.
--1a. Do you think this date is somehow "Christian" and if so, how?
--1b. Given that the bible does not give a day for the birth of Jesus, maybe you don't think Dec 25 is particularly Christian. If so, do you think that the fact that Dec 25 falls (very near to) the winter solstice is coincidence?

2. Is there in your view any Christian relevance we can derive from the (preferably sola) scriptura for the Christmas tree? And a sub-question for its lights.

3. Santa Claus, his flying sled, his reindeer, his elves and his gift giving, all together and each individually, are Christian how?

4. The idea of stuffing ourselves to the gills on Christmas has which Christian significance?

Now you may have an out here. Perhaps your answer to (at least some of) the above is simply "I don't know." Fair enough. If so, do you think there is anything wrong with drawing the more obvious "pagan" conclusions? E.g. the nearness to the winter solstice is not coincidence. Given that the light starts "returning" on that date, a fact which signals that seemingly dead nature will "revive", celebrating that fact with an evergreen ("undying") tree in which we hang lights is not all that strange? Or that in the middle of the season of scarcity having some supernatural force hand out goodies is not all that strange? Nor that, in that same season of scarcity, celebrating the hoped-for return of the good times with a stuffing feast, is particularly inexplicable behaviour? Please consider that these examples, in addition to addressing some individual points, also form a coherent whole.

I would submit that the above are sufficient by themselves to assume a prima facie a "pagan" compound (to put it mildly) in the Christmas celebrations as we have them. Maybe you want some more scholarly back-up nevertheless? True, that would be nice. I've just started reading an interesting book on comparative mythology by Joseph Campbell. So who knows, I may get back to you about that.

Gerard Stafleu

PhilosopherJay

Hi gstafleu,

Yes, Christmas seems to be a conglomeration of a multitude of customs. While giving Target and Blockbuster gift cards may have started with the Magi, who, no doubt, brought a few for Mrs. Joseph to the cave, other customs have come from different places, for example, kissing under the mistletoe is form Norse Mythology:

(from http://landscaping.about.com/cs/wint...istletoe_2.htm)

Baldur's mother was the Norse goddess, Frigga. When Baldur was born, Frigga made each and every plant, animal and inanimate object promise not to harm Baldur. But Frigga overlooked the mistletoe plant -- and the mischievous god of the Norse myths, Loki, took advantage of this oversight. Ever the prankster, Loki tricked one of the other gods into killing Baldur with a spear fashioned from mistletoe. The demise of Baldur, a vegetation deity in the Norse myths, brought winter into the world, although the gods did eventually restore Baldur to life. After which Frigga pronounced the mistletoe sacred, ordering that from now on it should bring love rather than death into the world. Happily complying with Frigga's wishes, any two people passing under the plant from now on would celebrate Baldur's resurrection by kissing under the mistletoe.

So remember that you are celebrating Baldur's resurrection whenever you kiss under the mistletoe.

Peace,

Philosopher Jay