Phlox Pyros

I'm trying to better understand the ancient's beliefs on heaven. In much ancient literature, the 7 (or so) levels or spheres of heaven are referred to. From Plato, I understand that they seemed to believe that the stars were on the farthest sphere and the planets were on different "spheres" because they did not "rotate" like the stars. Does anyone better versed in classic views know what these invisible "spheres" were? Did the ancients believe that the planets were "embedded" in some sort of invisible but solid shell-like sphere, or was "sphere" just how they chose to represent the orbits of the planets (similar to how we use visible circles to represent their orbits today)? Finally, these "spheres" seem to be connected with the levels of "heaven" and the stars and planets considered "gods". Can anyone point me to some literature that better explains how they viewed this? Was being on the "outside" of one of these spheres like being on another earth? If one was on the "surface" of the outermost "sphere" before the one that contained the "stars", would they only see stars (ie. no planets)?

Any good references to classic authors who talk about these issues in detail would be greatly appreciated.

mountainman

The following material was derived from a web page recently.
It may be of use, but is not a primary reference:


"All the workings of heaven, earth and the seas, and all the elements, their passages and goings and the thundering of the thunder, and of the Sun and the Moon; the goings and changing's of the stars; the seasons, years, days, and hours."
- The Book of the Secrets of Enoch

According to the The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, "it seems that when the prophet Enoch was 'taken up', he saw the air and then the ether. Then he reached the first heaven, where 'two hundred angels rule the stars' and where he saw a sea 'greater than the earthly sea'.

"The second heaven was gloomy.
In the third heaven, he saw the Tree of Life, with four streams, of honey, milk, oil, and wine, flowing from its roots. The Place of the Righteous is in this heaven and the Terrible Place where the wicked are tortured. There was also the 'place on which God rests when he comes into Paradise'.

"In the fourth heaven, he saw luminaries, wondrous creatures, and the Host of the Lord. There were many 'hosts' in the fifth, and in the sixth he saw 'bands of angels who study the revolutions of the stars'. Finally, in the seventh heaven he saw great angels and he got a distant glimpse of the Lord on His Throne."

- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities



"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to Paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell."
- 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (the apostle Paul describing his own experience)


"Enoch's third heaven...seems very similar to the region known as Ilavrta-varsa, which is described in the Fifth Canto of the Bhagavata Purana. Thus, in Ilavrta-varsa there are four gigantic trees, and four rivers flow from their roots, including a river of honey. There is also a city called Brahmapuri, which is visited by Lord Brahma and which may correspond to the 'place on which God rests when he comes into Paradise'."


The Venerable Bede, an eighth-century English theologian and historian, wrote that "the seven heavens are
(1) the Air,
(2) the Ether,
(3) Olympus,
(4) the Element of Fire,
(5) the Firmament,
(6) the Angelical Region, and
(7) the Realm of the Trinity."


"According to the Fifth Canto of the Bhagavata Purana, Brahmapuri and the residences of eight prominent Devas [administrators of the Universe] are situated on the top of a mountain in Ilavrta-varsa called Meru, and therefore Mount Meru corresponds to the Greek Olympus. Thus, if Ilavrta-varsa corresponds to Enoch's third heaven, then it is also reasonable to say that this third heaven corresponds to the Greek Olympus."

- Richard L. Thompson, Alien Identities




Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

Loomis

In Enuma Elish Marduk creates “stations” for the gods. Each “station” is a star.

Maybe over time the star for each god became synonymous with the god it stationed.

Loomis

Do you think there might be a connection with Isaiah 14:12ff?

Look how you have fallen from the sky,
Helel, son of Shachar!
You have been cut down to the ground,
to defeat the nations!
You said to yourself,
“I will climb up to the sky.
Above the stars of El
I will set up my throne.
I will rule on the mountain of assembly
on the remote slopes of Zaphon.
I will climb up to the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High!”

Loomis

Genesis 1:6~7 describes a similar invisible shell-like sphere.

God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters and let it separate the waters from the waters. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it.

Maybe there is a relationship here.

Also note how Marduk splits up Tiamat (a monster representing the sea).

He split her up like a flat fish into two halves;
One half of her he stablished as a covering for heaven.
He fixed a bolt, he stationed a watchman,
And bade them not to let her waters come forth.

Water above, and water below - separated by an invisible but solid shell-like ‘expanse’.

Clivedurdle

http://www.thenagain.info/Classes/So...Ptolemaic.html

Ptolemaic solar system - I assume he was using ideas that were commonly around - Bible seven levels probably is based on these ideas as well, with a good dose of numerology about the holy number seven!

Loomis

Same deal here. Fwiw …

Praise Qadashu, Lady of of the Stars of Heaven, Mistress of All the Gods,
May She grant life, welfare, prosperity, and health.
Mayest thou grant that I behold thy beauty daily.

Some say Qadashu and Asherah were the same goddess.

Loomis

Enoch had ten levels of heaven. Right?

The seventh heaven is where Gabriel appears and picks him up off his face.

The tenth heaven is where he sees the Lord.

Right?

Loomis

Me too. But I confess, I was absent that day back at the academy when they taught us how to read ancient Hebrew.

Can you check Psalm 115:3a for me?

Which are the acceptable translations?

1. Our god is in heaven!
   
   
2. Our god is in the heavens!
   
   
3. Our gods are in their heavens!

If the last translation is acceptable, then doesn’t this suggest that each god may have had his own "heaven?"

If the last translation is not acceptable, then never mind. :blush:

Phlox Pyros

I believe you are right, but I'd have to check to be sure. This confuses me as well. It seems that some reported 7 heavens, some 10, and some more than that. I'm not absolutely sure what they were all based on, though the earliest seem to be based on the sun, moon, 5 known planets, and perhaps the "background/fixed" stars or zodiac signs...