Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ray Moscow · 10-12-2007, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Got it!

http://www.kyrie.com/symbols/mandorla.htm

What are the relationships between mandorlas and mandalas?

A mandorla is the intersection of two circles and is "almond" shaped -- in fact, that's what almonds are called in Italian. Anyway, they are symbols of overlapping realms, realities, etc. and therefore often held sacred images like the Virgin or Jesus.

A mandala is a meditative pattern based on symmetrical repeating patterns, usually circles. They can contain mandorlas when circles overlap. Carl Jung wrote a lot of stuff about their symbolism, which is where I picked up on them.

Ray

judge · 10-12-2007, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The fish is a symbol here, a representation of our innate knowledge of the existence of irrational numbers in nature.

Maybe it is also a symbol that the age of Pisces had dawned. Pisces now was the pillar of the sun at Vernal equinox. Previously it had been Aries, and prior to that Taurus when the bull played an important part in many religions.

Added in edit:
Any religion or movement could quite obviously have used the fish symbol, as this "new age" had dawned. The ram or goat had been slayed and the new age, that of the fish, had begun.

Ray Moscow · 10-12-2007, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

It has been the subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history, perhaps first among the Pythagoreans, who considered it a holy figure.[citation needed] The mathematical ratio of its width (measured to the endpoints of the "body", not including the "tail") to its height was reportedly believed by them to be 265:153. This ratio, equal to 1.73203, was thought of as a holy number, called the measure of the fish.[citation needed] The geometric ratio of these dimensions is actually the square root of 3, or 1.73205... (since if you draw straight lines connecting the centers of the two circles with each other, and with the two points where the circles intersect, then you get two equilateral triangles joined along an edge). The ratio 265:153 is an approximation to the square root of 3, with the property that no better approximation can be obtained with smaller whole numbers. The number 153 appears in the Gospel of John (21:11) as the number of fish Jesus caused to be caught in a miraculous catch of fish, which is thought by some[citation needed] to be a coded reference to Pythagorean beliefs.

From wiki above.

This is not a coincidence that 153 appears in a fishy story!

In the earlier Pythagorus version, Mr. P talked the fishermen into letting the fish go by correctly estimating their numbers.

The inclusion of this story into John shows that the early Christians did not mind borrowing (well, stealing) from pagan stories.

Ray

Osbert · 10-12-2007, 04:36 AM

I don't know if it adds to the discussion; in Rome and in the south of Italy " The Fish" in general was/is regarded as a good luck sign and because it was so abundant in the seas it symbolised fertility.

This was confirmed by the fact that fish is suggestive of both male and female and their union: the shape of the fish when flat is female but its swimming movement is phallic.

To this very day when in Rome and Naples you say in dialect "u pisciu" you are alluding to a phallus.
(The law of similarities, smell, also consigns the symbolism of the fish to the genital regions.) Crude but true.

youngalexander · 10-12-2007, 04:45 AM

Grr, thort it seemed familiar. Something fishy - Site May Be 3rd-Century Place of Christian Worship

Judging by the age of broken pottery discovered on the floor, the distinctive mosaic style, inscriptions citing Jesus and the apparent pre-Byzantine design of the building, state archaeologists said the structure was most likely a public place of Christian worship that dates to the mid-3rd or early 4th century. If true, the find would join the early 3rd-century Christian gathering place at Dura Europus in Syria as one of the oldest of its kind.

If true - ie. some way yet to go!

As for fish, try Ante-Pacem
pages - 11, 13, 26, 27, 28, 30-35, 49, 50, 51, 109, 112, 123, 124-126, 160, 207, 234, 249, 301, 304
Fisher - 122-124, 207
Minoan Fishes 2000 BCE

Clivedurdle · 10-12-2007, 04:53 AM

I've just been googling about irrational and transcendental numbers and fibonacci and golden means, and there is a real issue here.

Men's brains, when they see a woman, are able to immediately calculate various ratios and make judgements about the health of that woman. When we throw or catch or lift we make similar mathematical calculations.

One of our skills has been to hone these skills by thinking about them consciously and develop stuff like geometry and mathematics and calculus and therefore build on evolved skills and gain some insight into them.

Gothic arches, shapes of fish, vulvas, almonds and golden means all cause immediate emotional and intellectual responses of "just right". Beautiful works of art do that.

I am attempting to get behind - oh that is a copy of something from paganism or the age of aquarius or code for Jesus Christ whatever - to why these symbols are so powerful, and there is a clear reason for that power - it is part of the mathematical structure of the universe - and has been expressed in many ways over the millenia, through for example the Pythagoreans, the concept of the great geometer, the gothic arch.

What am I on about? Read about squaring the circle, Archimedes...

These are the key issues of modern maths and physics. Xianity should be revisited as an interesting attempt to square the circle, to bring together the rational and irrational, to reconcile god and man.

Clivedurdle · 10-12-2007, 05:14 AM

On 153

Quote:

Considered by St. Augustine to represent seven gifts of the Holy Spirit and ten requirements of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/153_(number)

Anyone know anything about this?

Clivedurdle · 10-12-2007, 05:41 AM

A Study Of The Christian Fish Symbol in NARP

The Bishop's Eye

Clivedurdle · 10-12-2007, 06:01 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/pompeii.shtml Mod note: Pompeii Erotica may not be safe for work
Was the fish symbol used as graffiti? :devil1:

Clivedurdle · 10-12-2007, 06:31 AM

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/sf.html

pnsfw!

10-12-2007, 04:45 AM	#35
youngalexander Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mornington Peninsula Posts: 1,306	Grr, thort it seemed familiar. Something fishy - Site May Be 3rd-Century Place of Christian Worship Judging by the age of broken pottery discovered on the floor, the distinctive mosaic style, inscriptions citing Jesus and the apparent pre-Byzantine design of the building, state archaeologists said the structure was most likely a public place of Christian worship that dates to the mid-3rd or early 4th century. If true, the find would join the early 3rd-century Christian gathering place at Dura Europus in Syria as one of the oldest of its kind. If true - ie. some way yet to go! As for fish, try Ante-Pacem pages - 11, 13, 26, 27, 28, 30-35, 49, 50, 51, 109, 112, 123, 124-126, 160, 207, 234, 249, 301, 304 Fisher - 122-124, 207 Minoan Fishes 2000 BCE

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10-12-2007, 04:36 AM	#34
Osbert Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 412	I don't know if it adds to the discussion; in Rome and in the south of Italy " The Fish" in general was/is regarded as a good luck sign and because it was so abundant in the seas it symbolised fertility. This was confirmed by the fact that fish is suggestive of both male and female and their union: the shape of the fish when flat is female but its swimming movement is phallic. To this very day when in Rome and Naples you say in dialect "u pisciu" you are alluding to a phallus. (The law of similarities, smell, also consigns the symbolism of the fish to the genital regions.) Crude but true.

10-12-2007, 04:53 AM	#36
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I've just been googling about irrational and transcendental numbers and fibonacci and golden means, and there is a real issue here. Men's brains, when they see a woman, are able to immediately calculate various ratios and make judgements about the health of that woman. When we throw or catch or lift we make similar mathematical calculations. One of our skills has been to hone these skills by thinking about them consciously and develop stuff like geometry and mathematics and calculus and therefore build on evolved skills and gain some insight into them. Gothic arches, shapes of fish, vulvas, almonds and golden means all cause immediate emotional and intellectual responses of "just right". Beautiful works of art do that. I am attempting to get behind - oh that is a copy of something from paganism or the age of aquarius or code for Jesus Christ whatever - to why these symbols are so powerful, and there is a clear reason for that power - it is part of the mathematical structure of the universe - and has been expressed in many ways over the millenia, through for example the Pythagoreans, the concept of the great geometer, the gothic arch. What am I on about? Read about squaring the circle, Archimedes... These are the key issues of modern maths and physics. Xianity should be revisited as an interesting attempt to square the circle, to bring together the rational and irrational, to reconcile god and man.

10-12-2007, 05:41 AM	#38
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	A Study Of The Christian Fish Symbol in NARP The Bishop's Eye

10-12-2007, 06:01 AM	#39
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/pompeii.shtml Mod note: Pompeii Erotica may not be safe for work Was the fish symbol used as graffiti? :devil1:

10-12-2007, 06:31 AM	#40
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/sf.html pnsfw!

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