Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-01-2008, 06:30 AM

With thanks to David Meadows and others:

http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/200...historia-d.php

Note the photo of the ostraca -- from a Roman backwater no less (Iru�ea Veleia)! -- that bears a Calvary scene.

Jeffrey

Toto · 08-01-2008, 08:38 AM

Here's a google translation of the Spanish:

Quote:

The site of Iruña Veleia has unveiled a set epigráfico in which, among other valuable pieces, is the representation of Calvary-death in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ along with the two robbers, and his feet, two figures who may be the Virgin and St. John-oldest in the world. From simple stroke, without much detail, the representation of the death of Jesus on the cross represents an extraordinary discovery by both the place where it was discovered by the chronology that have revealed the different tests of carbon 14 and detections of a a particle accelerator which has been subjected to this piece of pottery.

The drawing of Calvary Veleia found in the third century after Christ, has become a principle in the world's oldest representation of a scene from the life of Jesus. There is no other graphical representation of the death of the Son of God so early. Any allusion to the scene of the crucifixion that occurred on Mount Calvary, both in paintings, like ceramics, is rather later than the third century after Christ.

But revision of history, not only that representation unearthed in Iruña Veleia is important for its timing. In addition, require a historical review of the assumptions that were held so far on the origins of Christianity in Alava.

In the Diocese of Vitoria yesterday declined to make any assessment on these archaeological finds discovered in a field located just ten kilometers from the capital of Alava. Sources said that the diocese knew in advance the emergence of this piece and its meaning. However, avoided comment on the historical review that arises from now and what is your assessment, the value they attach to finding precious.

Anyway, the team of archeologists who will offer more details today about this discovery also will be attended by a representative of Bishop, who will follow closely all the explanations and assessments that efectuén historians, as expressed yesterday by the Episcopal See.

This is from 2006, but I don't see anything else on it. I would think it would be the subject of some comment.

cgordon · 08-01-2008, 08:41 AM

If this is the Calvary scene:

I count more than three crosses, and since crucifixion was fairly common in the Empire, how do we know that the depicted scene is supposed to be Calvary?

Toto · 08-01-2008, 09:07 AM

There is a wikipedia entry that describes this find.

Quote:

Epigraphic set
In the Domus de Pompeia Valentina, built in the 1st century and inhabited continuously until the 5th, a sealed room has yielded an epigraphic set described as "among the most important in the Roman world"[3]. Among the findings are:

270 inscriptions and drawings on pottery fragments, some of which refer to Egyptian history and even some written in Egyptian hieroglyphs "with a perfect layout". Experts hypothesize that these may have been used for teaching children.

The earliest representation of the Calvary (crucifixion of Jesus) found anywhere to date.

The importance of this epigraphic set has been compared to those found in Pompeii, Rome and Vindolanda (England).

And there is a website for the archeological site (although the wiki link does not work):

http://veleia.com/english/index.php

There is an upcoming international conference

Ben C Smith · 08-01-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgordon

I count more than three crosses, and since crucifixion was fairly common in the Empire, how do we know that the depicted scene is supposed to be Calvary?

I think the Calvary scene being spoken of is the one further down the page:

Note the two figures in front of the center cross.

Ben.

Jeffrey Gibson · 08-01-2008, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgordon

I count more than three crosses, and since crucifixion was fairly common in the Empire, how do we know that the depicted scene is supposed to be Calvary?

I think the Calvary scene being spoken of is the one further down the page:

Note the two figures in front of the center cross.

Ben.

Note also the "glory" effect at the top of the center cross, the titulus incribed on it, the kneeling witnesses to the crucifixion at the foot of the center cross, and passersby on the "roadway" beneath it.

But of course, it's a Eusebian forgery!

Jeffrey

Jeffrey

Ben C Smith · 08-01-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

I think the Calvary scene being spoken of is the one further down the page:

Note the two figures in front of the center cross.

Ben.

Note also the "glory" effect at the top of the center cross, the titulus incribed on it, the kneeling witnesses to the crucifixion at the foot of the center cross, and passersby on the "roadway" beneath it.

I noticed the glory effects, and could see there was a titulus, but I cannot seem to access a larger photo than what that site offers, and cannot actually read the titulus. Can you make out what it says?

Quote:

But of course, it's a Eusebian forgery!

Or just some other random guy crucified between two other victims, with reverent witnesses at the foot of the cross and a sheen of glory exuding from the cross.

Ben.

Toto · 08-01-2008, 10:18 AM

It would be interesting to have an artifact that can be carbon dated to the 3rd century, and it would surely put an end to Pete's speculation about the invention of Christianity in the 4th century (a consummation devoutly to be wished, by this moderator, anyway.)

But there is a lot of stuff in this archeological find that is just too suited for important political constituencies, or just puzzling. Egytpian hieroglyphics - when the Egyptians had started to write Coptic with the Greek alphabet? Basque language written in Latin alphabet - earlier than any other examples by 8 centuries? The first representation of the crucifixion?

There's an article here in English.

gurugeorge · 08-01-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Can you make out what it says?

Isn't it "RIP"?

Huon · 08-01-2008, 10:54 AM

The titulus is RIP, clearly to be seen on a picture, lower on the page.

08-01-2008, 06:30 AM	#1
Jeffrey Gibson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,058	3rd century Christian grafitti (along with other curiosities) discovered in Spain With thanks to David Meadows and others: http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/200...historia-d.php Note the photo of the ostraca -- from a Roman backwater no less (Iru�ea Veleia)! -- that bears a Calvary scene. Jeffrey

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-01-2008, 08:41 AM	#3
cgordon Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,402	If this is the Calvary scene: I count more than three crosses, and since crucifixion was fairly common in the Empire, how do we know that the depicted scene is supposed to be Calvary?

08-01-2008, 10:18 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It would be interesting to have an artifact that can be carbon dated to the 3rd century, and it would surely put an end to Pete's speculation about the invention of Christianity in the 4th century (a consummation devoutly to be wished, by this moderator, anyway.) But there is a lot of stuff in this archeological find that is just too suited for important political constituencies, or just puzzling. Egytpian hieroglyphics - when the Egyptians had started to write Coptic with the Greek alphabet? Basque language written in Latin alphabet - earlier than any other examples by 8 centuries? The first representation of the crucifixion? There's an article here in English.

08-01-2008, 10:54 AM	#10
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The titulus is RIP, clearly to be seen on a picture, lower on the page.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.