GakuseiDon

Is Paul saying that Christ died sometime after the time of Moses? It sounds like he is implying it, to me at least.

From Paul's Epistle to the Romans. Passages in blue, with my comments following. The interesting part is Romans 5:14:

Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
So Christ died at some time in the past, "in due time". I assume that this would be from anywhere between the time of Adam (see below), to Paul's time.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
We were sinners at some point, saved by God. We have "now" received the reconciliation through Christ's death.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Death came into the world through the sin of Adam, and spread to all men. I'm assuming (correctly?) that Christ can't have died before the time of Adam.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
This is the interesting part. "A type of Him who was to come" places Christ after Adam. And if death reigned from Adam to Moses, does this mean that Christ can't have died before the time of Moses? It certainly sounds that way to me. Anyone have any thoughts?

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Just adding some context to all this. Adam is the first man from whom sin came into the world. Christ is the first-fruits of the new man, who set things right. Is it possible that Christ could have died before Moses? It doesn't seem that way. Or am I just a crazy theist???

Clivedurdle

You have provoked the memories, like cobwebs, of myriad preachers about this - these are key pentecostal texts!

Hebrews is important here. I'm sure I have heard it said that Christ's death is eternal, technically it might have happened before Adam.

There are loads of other verses you quote that do not make sense.



Doesn't this mean anyone who has not heard of the one God thru Judaism, later xianity, cannot sin?

I suppose Jesus as Melchizadek is a possibility....

The almost mathematical cadence of these verses is interesting, on the one hand, the weighing up, the balancing, the payment concepts. Is there worship of "one" happening, almost pythagorean?

Thomas II

Adam broke it and Jesus fixed it.
Adam is the archetype of the "primary man".
Jesus(Christ)is the archetype of the "perfected man". Jesus becomes "the Christ" on the cross. Jesus perfects Adam on the cross...
"The Cross" is the initiation process where Jesus perfects the act of letting go of all his ego attachments. If he died or not is unimportant to me. (Sorry.)
What would be more important is that he accomplished his exercise of letting go of all his expectations and self importance. "It is done" indicates he did.
Having emptied himself completely of "Jesus" he becomes the perfect recipient
for the universal consciousness he called "his father"...

The historical value of the stories of Adam and Eve, and Jesus, is secondary to their archetypal value.
I see them as archetypical. That is their true value, at least for me...

GakuseiDon

Which passages do you mean?

Clivedurdle

Just about all of Hebrews, but 5 v 6, 4 14 - 16, 5 v 5 "to day I have begotten thee"

Read Hebrews as it is (preferably in KJV!), do not assume you know other bits of the story, like the gospels.

If we assume Paul wrote Hebrews, doesn't this strengthen the mj case?

9 21

"without shedding of blood there is no remission."

Doesn't this contradict crucifixion? Death on a cross is not about shedding of blood - the gospels say he was pierced to check he was dead, not as an equivalent to an animal sacrifice or Abraham and Isaac. Blood sacrifices involve knives!

Vorkosigan

DON G: <Robert Shaw voice> Ya Folla me, son?

VORKOSIGAN: <Robert Redford voice> Nope. I can't pin down where it is Paul seems to say that Jesus died in the distant past. Can you point to exactly where he says that?

GakuseiDon

I checked those passages, but they don't seem to indicate that Christ's death was before Adam.

Is there any reason to think that Paul is NOT placing Christ's death after the time of Moses?

GakuseiDon

Sorry, I don't get the reference, I'm afraid, Vork! Paul seems to be placing Christ's death after the time of Moses. Is there anything written by him that places Christ's death before Moses?

Vorkosigan

Oh, sorry! My misreading. I thought you were weirdly making some pro-Doherty argument, but now I see you are reasonably making an anti-Doherty argument. I shouldn't even be here, my brain is fried from grading papers.

Ref: The Sting...

S.C.Carlson

Big assumption.