Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-11-2013, 12:37 PM

The Pandera story is probably not factual given the Jews weren't keen about Christianity ('keen' because I've been hanging out with British people, must have rubbed off)

Duvduv · 01-11-2013, 01:10 PM

This was not the subject of this thread, and I suggest you go back to other postings where i discussed Pandera and the Nativiry.
I want to discuss here the subject of this thread, which you are not interested in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The Pandera story is probably not factual given the Jews weren't keen about Christianity ('keen' because I've been hanging out with British people, must have rubbed off)

stephan huller · 01-11-2013, 01:27 PM

I am still trying to figure out what the exact topic of the thread is. The standard understanding is that Osroene was one of the earliest Christian kingdoms and Edessa its cultural center (centre). Why not start with that and then move on to the early veneration of Judas the twin, Marcionitism, St. Berenice,. Addai and the like. Also Abgar, the Acts of Archelaus. There are so many directions the thread could move. I am just having difficulty figuring out what you are asking here.

aa5874 · 01-11-2013, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

We find that accounts of the emergence of Christians in Mesopotamia rely on writings of one Bar Hebraeus and accounts in a 10th or 11th encylopedia called Suda, which quotes a historian named Procopius from the 6th century who stated that the Persian king Yazdegerd I legalized the Christian religion in Mesopotamia at the end of the 4th century (which was then revoked by a subsequent ruler).

However, we do not find any description of where Christians in Mesopotamia (especially in the major city of Ctesiphon) actually came from or were they were located based on some traditional chronology, i.e. between the 1st and 4th centuries.

In the description attributed to Bar Hebraeus or some other unidentified source, the Christians just appeared out of nowhere under the leadership of one Papa bar Aggai (who as it happens lives during the period of Constantine) and were already on track with Roman Christian theology, the canon, etc.

At the beginning of the 5th century a synod in the city of Ctesiphon accepted the Nicene Creed. Around the same time the Talmud was being redacted by Rav Ashi who lived in the Jewish community in Ctesiphon and who had a good relationship with the king and officialdom (which is discussed in the Talmud itself). Yet despite references to the Zoroastrians for some reason there is no reference to Christians in that time when the diocese in Ctesiphon had just ostensibly established according to Procopius etc., presumably for a significantly large "Christian" community, about whose origins virtually nothing is described or claimed to be known.

If you can accept claims made by Bar Hebraeus or some unidentified source that there were Christians at the end of the 4th century then why are you so irate when others use LUCIAN a writer of the 2nd century??

Lucian, a non-Apologetic writer, did state in "The death of Peregrine" that there were Christians in Palestine sometime in the 2nd century.

sotto voce · 01-11-2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

what is this thread about

Papa

Duvduv · 01-12-2013, 04:04 PM

Edessa was not down in the center of Mesopotamia/Iraq, i.e. Ctesiphon and the location of Rav Ashi et al at the end of the 4th century. The question is when did Christians emerge in that area, and the information for prior to the fourth century is very sparse despite mention of Papa, etc. given the fact that nothing is hinted at even in the Talmud stories that refer to the relationship between Yezdegerd, the queen, and the Jewish community during the same period..

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am still trying to figure out what the exact topic of the thread is. The standard understanding is that Osroene was one of the earliest Christian kingdoms and Edessa its cultural center (centre). Why not start with that and then move on to the early veneration of Judas the twin, Marcionitism, St. Berenice,. Addai and the like. Also Abgar, the Acts of Archelaus. There are so many directions the thread could move. I am just having difficulty figuring out what you are asking here.

mountainman · 01-12-2013, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't see how anyone can doubt that dating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Catholic Encyclopedia

The principal document concerning him is the "Acta Thomae", preserved to us with some variations both in Greek and in Syriac, and bearing unmistakeable signs of its Gnostic origin. It may indeed be the work of Bardesanes himself. The story in many of its particulars is utterly extravagant, but it is the early date, being assigned by Harnack (Chronologie, ii, 172) to the beginning of the third century, before A.D. 220. If the place of its origin is really Edessa, as Harnack and others for sound reasons supposed (ibid., p. 176), this would lend considerable probability to the statement, explicitly made in "Acta" (Bonnet, cap. 170, p. 286), that the relics of Apostle Thomas, which we know to have been venerated at Edessa, had really come from the East. The extravagance of the legend may be judged from the fact that in more than one place (cap. 31, p. 148) it represents Thomas (Judas Thomas, as he is called here and elsewhere in Syriac tradition) as the twin brother of Jesus. (emphasis tanya)

I cannot imagine anyone, except Stephan, accepting a second century date for this document of such low repute, that even the Catholic Church disowns its validity. It may indeed have been written in the second, or even the third century, but WHY? What purpose would it have served, until the FOURTH century, when it would have been essential to produce written evidence repudiating Manichaeism, in the area, i.e. Mesopotamia, where the memory of Mani lingered, several decades after the Mesopotamian hero's unjust execution by the hated Persian Emperor. It was Mani, not "Judas" Thomas Didymus, who had traveled to Afghanistan and India.

Do powerful governments lie?

Do powerful governments issue dishonest written documents, texts fervently accepted by the VAST MAJORITY of inhabitants under the government's rule?

:huh:

In regard to non Christians travelling to India, there is also the issue of the imperial sponsorship c.210-220 CE of Philostratus to assemble a biography of the famous and well known 1st century Hellenistic priest, healer and author Apollonius of Tyana.

As an aside I think it is possible that Mani trecked to India after he had read Philostratus.

Skeptical enquiry has the right to doubt the facts as presented by the victors, whether they are 20th century American imperialists or 4th century Christian imperialists.
.

Well done tanya

mountainman · 01-12-2013, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Edessa was not down in the center of Mesopotamia/Iraq, i.e. Ctesiphon and the location of Rav Ashi et al at the end of the 4th century. The question is when did Christians emerge in that area, and the information for prior to the fourth century is very sparse ...

Big E. is first to mention the letter exchange between King Agbar of Edessa and Big J.

Quote:

.... the Christians just appeared out of nowhere under the leadership of one Papa bar Aggai (who as it happens lives during the period of Constantine) and were already on track with Roman Christian theology, the canon, etc

All Christian roads lead to and from Nicaea.

Duvduv · 01-12-2013, 07:10 PM

On this specific issue could you elaborate? Do we see a reproduction of the undocumented and unproven legendary origins of Christians in Mesopotamia prior to the 4th or 5th century?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Edessa was not down in the center of Mesopotamia/Iraq, i.e. Ctesiphon and the location of Rav Ashi et al at the end of the 4th century. The question is when did Christians emerge in that area, and the information for prior to the fourth century is very sparse ...

Big E. is first to mention the letter exchange between King Agbar of Edessa and Big J.

Quote:

.... the Christians just appeared out of nowhere under the leadership of one Papa bar Aggai (who as it happens lives during the period of Constantine) and were already on track with Roman Christian theology, the canon, etc

All Christian roads lead to and from Nicaea.

mountainman · 01-12-2013, 10:42 PM

Eusebius even asserts there were Christian bishops in the Persian capital city in the 3rd century.

The emerging early Christians were everywhere !!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

On this specific issue could you elaborate? Do we see a reproduction of the undocumented and unproven legendary origins of Christians in Mesopotamia prior to the 4th or 5th century?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Edessa was not down in the center of Mesopotamia/Iraq, i.e. Ctesiphon and the location of Rav Ashi et al at the end of the 4th century. The question is when did Christians emerge in that area, and the information for prior to the fourth century is very sparse ...

Big E. is first to mention the letter exchange between King Agbar of Edessa and Big J.

Quote:

.... the Christians just appeared out of nowhere under the leadership of one Papa bar Aggai (who as it happens lives during the period of Constantine) and were already on track with Roman Christian theology, the canon, etc

All Christian roads lead to and from Nicaea.

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01-11-2013, 12:37 PM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Pandera story is probably not factual given the Jews weren't keen about Christianity ('keen' because I've been hanging out with British people, must have rubbed off)

01-11-2013, 01:27 PM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am still trying to figure out what the exact topic of the thread is. The standard understanding is that Osroene was one of the earliest Christian kingdoms and Edessa its cultural center (centre). Why not start with that and then move on to the early veneration of Judas the twin, Marcionitism, St. Berenice,. Addai and the like. Also Abgar, the Acts of Archelaus. There are so many directions the thread could move. I am just having difficulty figuring out what you are asking here.

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