Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Kesler · 11-26-2006, 05:02 AM

Rather than imposing an overly literal reading onto the text, why not let the Bible interpret itself?

Quote:

1 Kings 4:20-21:
20 Judah and Israel were as numerous as the sand by the sea; they ate and drank and were happy. 21 Solomon was sovereign over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines, even to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

"As numerous as the sand by the sea" simply meant a large number.

Joan of Bark · 11-26-2006, 10:03 PM

In other words, God is given to making meaningless statements. Large, relative to what?

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore."

- Genesis 22:17

Similar statements appear in Gen 26:4 and 32:13, as well as 1 Chronicles 27:23, Nehemiah 9:23 and Jeremiah 33:22, whilst in Deuteronomy we get three statements about the Hebrews ONCE being as numerous as 'the stars in the sky' (Deut 1:10, 10:22 and 28:62).

According to ABC Science online, 2003, there are some 7.0 x 10 to the 23rd stars in our universe. Clearly God has some work to do to fulfill this prophecy.

Perhaps he meant visible stars? That doesn't work either, for the opposite reason: there are less than 10,000 visible stars from the surface of the Earth, even under the best conditions. The Hebrews were already much more numerous than that at the time of His statements.

1) So how do the 'literalists' explain these passages?

2) What is the Judaic explanation for something that would be considered a human 'turn of phrase' by most of us?

As numerous as the stars just means "a lot." Not even a literalist should misinterpret the clear meaning here. The use of exaggeration as a trope is common in the bible, and Jesus used it alot (e.g., the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds)

The more interesting question is, what happened to that promise? Judaism never did have very many followers, as religions go. It was always (and remains) a very minor religion in that sense.

Paul's "answer" is that Christians are the spiritual descendants of Abraham, and since they number around 1 billion, which is a lot by any standard, that's how the promise was fulfilled.

Gamera · 11-27-2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

In other words, God is given to making meaningless statements. Large, relative to what?

Why is that meaningless. If the text said, "I'll give a whole lot of descendants," presumably that would have been meaningful to Abraham. I understand it, and I wasn't even there.

Joan of Bark · 11-28-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Why is that meaningless. If the text said, "I'll give a whole lot of descendants," presumably that would have been meaningful to Abraham. I understand it, and I wasn't even there.

What if Abraham's version of 'a lot' is not the same as God's? In other words, is God hedging his bet by refusing (in several passages) to give a solid number? As He is omniscient, he should be able to give a minimum number to allow Abraham or his descendants to know when the prophecy had been fulfilled. If I were Abraham, I would ask the question: Could you be a little more specific?

Of course, if Paul's interpretation is correct, then I would agree that this vague prophecy has been fulfilled.

Gamera · 11-28-2006, 03:29 PM

[QUOTE=Joan of Bark;3960699]

Quote:

What if Abraham's version of 'a lot' is not the same as God's? In other words, is God hedging his bet by refusing (in several passages) to give a solid number? As He is omniscient, he should be able to give a minimum number to allow Abraham or his descendants to know when the prophecy had been fulfilled. If I were Abraham, I would ask the question: Could you be a little more specific?

I suspect if God or a very smart doctor told you you were going to have a heck of lot of descendants, you'd understand that and not really care about the specifics. The meaning is unambiguous. Whether it's 100 or 1 million is irrelevant to Abraham, who simply wants a lot of descendants, apparently.

But actually, since the number of visible stars is more or less knowable, if Abraham really cared to know, he could have estimated that number of visible stars, which I believe on a good night is not an unwieldy number. The guy was a shepherd and presumably familiar with the night sky.

Joan of Bark · 11-28-2006, 04:57 PM

[QUOTE=Gamera;3962629]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

I suspect if God or a very smart doctor told you you were going to have a heck of lot of descendants, you'd understand that and not really care about the specifics. The meaning is unambiguous. Whether it's 100 or 1 million is irrelevant to Abraham, who simply wants a lot of descendants, apparently.

But actually, since the number of visible stars is more or less knowable, if Abraham really cared to know, he could have estimated that number of visible stars, which I believe on a good night is not an unwieldy number. The guy was a shepherd and presumably familiar with the night sky.

I think the meaning is highly ambiguous, coming from the most mighty being in the universe, but it's obvious we've reached an impasse on this discussion.

And as to the visible stars in the sky, as I pointed out, there are less than 10,000 visible from the entire surface of the Earth. If Abraham had estimated this number, he would have said to God: "Hey there, big guy, this prophecy has already come true."

Gamera · 11-28-2006, 05:22 PM

[QUOTE=Joan of Bark;3962807]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I think the meaning is highly ambiguous, coming from the most mighty being in the universe, but it's obvious we've reached an impasse on this discussion.

And as to the visible stars in the sky, as I pointed out, there are less than 10,000 visible from the entire surface of the Earth. If Abraham had estimated this number, he would have said to God: "Hey there, big guy, this prophecy has already come true."

I don't think the bible says Abraham had 10,000 descendants while he was still alive.

Aristophanes · 11-28-2006, 06:03 PM

perhaps it's mankinds destiny to go out to the stars. to populate the universe so that there truly will be as many descendants of man as the sands on the sea shore.

Quote:

he should be able to give a minimum number to allow Abraham or his descendants to know when the prophecy had been fulfilled.

maybe the point is that the prophecy will never be fulfilled; in the sense, that it would be a continuous process. perhaps it's not so much to say that, one day your descendants will be this many, so much as saying, your descendants will have descendants who will have descendants and so on and so forth... or something...

meh, just throwing that out there. there's so many different ways to interpret that stupid book. i doubt any literalists would agree with what i was saying anyway.

Joan of Bark · 11-28-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I don't think the bible says Abraham had 10,000 descendants while he was still alive.

You are correct. What I should have said was that the prophecy had been already fulfilled by the time of Chronicles, Nehemiah and Jeremiah, where the prophecy was also made.

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11-26-2006, 10:03 PM	#12
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	In other words, God is given to making meaningless statements. Large, relative to what?

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