Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mindsword · 06-26-2009, 02:12 AM

in the old testament he's propably the most evil/psychotic/backward/powerhungry character in the history of all fiction. and in the new testament, he actually killed jesus.

Mindsword · 06-26-2009, 02:14 AM

wrong forum, plz move

Toto · 06-26-2009, 09:45 AM

You are confusing Satan with the anti-Christ.

The gnostics saw the Biblical Hebrew god YHWH as a lesser god, the demiurge, who was more incompetant than evil.

The Bible has Jesus come to earth and be sacrificed by wordly powers (not YHWH) as part of a ritual of atonement. The gnostics had their own interpretation of this, which is rather convoluted.

ashurbanipal · 06-26-2009, 11:27 AM

I'm not sure that the gnostics thought of YHVH as the anti-christ. He was (as Toto says) the demiurge, the "blind god" who isn't fully aware of either what he's up to or the consequences of his actions. He's more like a little child who is prone to temper tantrums and who lacks the wisdom or understanding of an adult.

Different gnostic sects viewed the antichrist differently (some didn't believe in the antichrist at all, from what we can determine about them).

Generally speaking, I think the gnostics got it more right than the church of Rome did.

Joan of Bark · 06-28-2009, 07:44 PM

I was under the impression that the Gnostics (well, some of them anyway) did view YHWH or Elohim as evil, as He created the material world, which is intrinsically evil.

mountainman · 07-01-2009, 10:11 PM

In the new testament apocryphal text of gJudas the Gnostic author
presents the twelve apostles as twelve daimons who do not have
the guts to look at Jesus in the eyes. Jesus is cast as a sorceror.

Who were the gnostics? They do not appear "christian".
The orthodoxy viewed these gnostic books as heretical.
The orthodox viewed these books as Anti-Christian.

A list of prohibited gnostic books was compiled in the time of Eusebius.
This index would be maintained for over sixteen centuries
as the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum".

That's why the Nag Hammadi Codices were buried c.348 CE.

Those who coined the word "Anti-Christ" and "Anti-Christian"
were very early orthodox and canonical christians. The term
was applied to the gnostics and the heretics of the 4th century.
It was a term (IMO) reserved for people who would not buy
the integrity of the story of Constantine's sponsored new god.

It is important to remind people that the god of the gnostics
and the god of Plato, and those who preserved the academy
of Plato (Ammonias ****, Plotinus, Porphyry, (Arius?), Iamblichus
and at the end of the lineage, Sopater (executed by Constantine))
all understood the following "Holy Trinity" of Plato ...

Take off the "Christian God Glasses".
The following is Hellenistic, gentile or pagan ...
You will note the reference to "Good".
God was "GOOD".
God was "CHRESTOS".
God ("The One") was "CHRESTOS".
God ("The Non-Christian One") was "CHRESTOS".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell

History of Western Philosophy
p.292

"The metaphysics of Plotinus begins with a Holy Trinity:
The One, Spirit and Soul. These three are not equal,
like the Persons of the Holy Trinity; the One is
supreme, Spirit comes next, and Soul last.[2]

[2] Origen, a contemporary of Plotinus and
had the same teacher **** in philosophy, taught
that the First Person was superior to the
Second, and the Second to the Third, agreeing
in this with Plotinus. But Origen's view was
subsequently declared heretical.

THE ONE is somewhat shadowy. It is sometimes called
God, sometimes called the Good; it transcends Being.

THE NOUS "SPIRIT" - offspring/reflection of the ONE.
includes mind - the intellect.

SOUL - offspring of the Divine Intellect. It is double:
there is an inner soul, intent on NOUS, and another,
which faces the external.

**** Ammonias Saccas.

The lowly dock worker and carrier of grain sacks.
Purportedly the reviver of the lineage of Platonism.
The problem is that we have a doppelganger in history.
For those who love a mystery story our ancient history
appear replete with two different Ammonias Saccas'.
One was a pagan.
One, asserts Eusebius, was a Christian!
How gullible are people who buy the "Christian Story"
of Ammonias Saccas and Origen (OMG !!) off the rack?

dog-on · 07-02-2009, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You are confusing Satan with the anti-Christ.

The gnostics saw the Biblical Hebrew god YHWH as a lesser god, the demiurge, who was more incompetant than evil.

The Bible has Jesus come to earth and be sacrificed by wordly powers (not YHWH) as part of a ritual of atonement. The gnostics had their own interpretation of this, which is rather convoluted.

Convoluted?

Orthodox : God (YHWH) sacrifices himself (JC) to himself (YHWH) to save us from himself (YHWH) to deliver us from his (YHWH) law.

Gnostic: Greater God (unknowable most excellent dude) sends his son (JC) as a ransom to deliver us from the law of the creator (demiurge) (YHWH).

You decide...

06-26-2009, 02:12 AM	#1
Mindsword Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: earth Posts: 1,637	Is the biblical god really the anti-christ as the gnostics said? in the old testament he's propably the most evil/psychotic/backward/powerhungry character in the history of all fiction. and in the new testament, he actually killed jesus.

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06-26-2009, 02:14 AM	#2
Mindsword Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: earth Posts: 1,637	wrong forum, plz move

06-26-2009, 09:45 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You are confusing Satan with the anti-Christ. The gnostics saw the Biblical Hebrew god YHWH as a lesser god, the demiurge, who was more incompetant than evil. The Bible has Jesus come to earth and be sacrificed by wordly powers (not YHWH) as part of a ritual of atonement. The gnostics had their own interpretation of this, which is rather convoluted.

06-26-2009, 11:27 AM	#4
ashurbanipal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Midwest, USA Posts: 928	I'm not sure that the gnostics thought of YHVH as the anti-christ. He was (as Toto says) the demiurge, the "blind god" who isn't fully aware of either what he's up to or the consequences of his actions. He's more like a little child who is prone to temper tantrums and who lacks the wisdom or understanding of an adult. Different gnostic sects viewed the antichrist differently (some didn't believe in the antichrist at all, from what we can determine about them). Generally speaking, I think the gnostics got it more right than the church of Rome did.

06-28-2009, 07:44 PM	#5
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	I was under the impression that the Gnostics (well, some of them anyway) did view YHWH or Elohim as evil, as He created the material world, which is intrinsically evil.

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