Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SecularFuture · 10-12-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by telegraph.co.uk

Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis "in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth" is not a true translation of the Hebrew.

She claims she has carried out fresh textual analysis that suggests the writers of the great book never intended to suggest that God created the world -- and in fact the Earth was already there when he created humans and animals.

Prof Van Wolde, 54, who will present a thesis on the subject at Radboud University in The Netherlands where she studies, said she had re-analysed the original Hebrew text and placed it in the context of the Bible as a whole, and in the context of other creation stories from ancient Mesopotamia.

She said she eventually concluded the Hebrew verb "bara", which is used in the first sentence of the book of Genesis, does not mean "to create" but to "spatially separate".

The first sentence should now read "in the beginning God separated the Heaven and the Earth"

I wonder if others are going to rethink those lines in Genesis now.

ughaibu · 10-12-2009, 10:23 PM

Isn't there a thread about this already.

spamandham · 10-12-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecularFuture

Quote:

Originally Posted by telegraph.co.uk

Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis "in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth" is not a true translation of the Hebrew.

She claims she has carried out fresh textual analysis that suggests the writers of the great book never intended to suggest that God created the world -- and in fact the Earth was already there when he created humans and animals.

Prof Van Wolde, 54, who will present a thesis on the subject at Radboud University in The Netherlands where she studies, said she had re-analysed the original Hebrew text and placed it in the context of the Bible as a whole, and in the context of other creation stories from ancient Mesopotamia.

She said she eventually concluded the Hebrew verb "bara", which is used in the first sentence of the book of Genesis, does not mean "to create" but to "spatially separate".

The first sentence should now read "in the beginning God separated the Heaven and the Earth"

I wonder if others are going to rethink those lines in Genesis now.

This isn't new, but perhaps it is just now becoming popular to look at what the Greek and Hebrew really say, instead of what people just wish they said. There do see to be a rash of recent works based on faithful translations instead of just King James nonsense.

Joan of Bark · 10-13-2009, 04:28 AM

I suspect an entire book could be written about the first line of Genesis. For instance, what exactly does "in the beginning" mean? The Big Bang? The moment Sol began fusing hydrogen? The coalescing of the matter that formed the planets?

And what was meant by "heaven"? God's abode (as Genesis seems to say)? Or the sky? Or the afterlife?

PhilosopherJay · 10-13-2009, 06:43 AM

Hi SecularFuture,

I think this is true and undoubtedly important.
The idea that a God created the world from nothing was a response to Epicurus' declaration that "Nothing comes from nothing." The reinterpretation of the opening passage of Genesis would have come as a response to Epicurus, sometime after the Third century B.C.E. Just as Jews misinterpreted Plato to get their monotheistic God, they misinterpreted Epicurus to turn him into a creator God.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecularFuture

Quote:

Originally Posted by telegraph.co.uk

Professor Ellen van Wolde, a respected Old Testament scholar and author, claims the first sentence of Genesis "in the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth" is not a true translation of the Hebrew.

She claims she has carried out fresh textual analysis that suggests the writers of the great book never intended to suggest that God created the world -- and in fact the Earth was already there when he created humans and animals.

Prof Van Wolde, 54, who will present a thesis on the subject at Radboud University in The Netherlands where she studies, said she had re-analysed the original Hebrew text and placed it in the context of the Bible as a whole, and in the context of other creation stories from ancient Mesopotamia.

She said she eventually concluded the Hebrew verb "bara", which is used in the first sentence of the book of Genesis, does not mean "to create" but to "spatially separate".

The first sentence should now read "in the beginning God separated the Heaven and the Earth"

I wonder if others are going to rethink those lines in Genesis now.

semiopen · 10-13-2009, 06:49 AM

I never noticed before that God didn't create water.

That's a simple and elegant point that really defines the issue.

Thanks for posting this.

aa5874 · 10-13-2009, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi SecularFuture,

I think this is true and undoubtedly important.
The idea that a God created the world from nothing was a response to Epicurus' declaration that "Nothing comes from nothing." The reinterpretation of the opening passage of Genesis would have come as a response to Epicurus, sometime after the Third century B.C.E. Just as Jews misinterpreted Plato to get their monotheistic God, they misinterpreted Epicurus to turn him into a creator God.

But, aren't there creation stories older than the Jewish creation story? That a God created the ancient world does not appear to have originated in Judea.

And even if the word used to mean "create" may mean "spatially separate" in the very same Genesis it is claimed God both "created" and "MADE" heaven and earth.

The God of the Jews may have spatially separated heaven and earth after he MADE them.

But, some God of Egypt or of another country might have done the very same thing a little earlier than the God of the Jews.

I think Gods may now be called the The Spatial Separators and Makers of Heaven and Earth.

This is Genesis 2:4 -

Quote:

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

lpetrich · 10-13-2009, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

The idea that a God created the world from nothing was a response to Epicurus' declaration that "Nothing comes from nothing." The reinterpretation of the opening passage of Genesis would have come as a response to Epicurus, sometime after the Third century B.C.E. Just as Jews misinterpreted Plato to get their monotheistic God, they misinterpreted Epicurus to turn him into a creator God.

I don't know what gives you that idea -- is there any direct evidence of wanting to rebut the Epicureans there?

John Kesler · 10-13-2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I never noticed before that God didn't create water.

You may be interested in a post I made on another list in 2005. If you click the link, you can read other posts in that thread titled "Creation Ex Nihilo?"

Quote:

RE: [biblical-studies] Creation Ex Nihilo?

> Kevin P. Edgecomb responds:
> John, I would translate Isaiah 45.18 like this:
> "For thus says the Lord,
> creator of the heavens;
> he is God,
> fashioner of the earth.
> He made it well-founded,
> not chaotic did he create it;
> he fashioned it to inhabit:
> "I am the Lord, and there is no other."

KESLER
First, I would like to thank Kevin, Yitzhak, and all others who
contributed to this thread. In researching this further, I came across
this from *The Anchor Bible Dictionary,* volume 2, p. 943, which puts a
different twist on the discussion:

"The verse in Genesis [1:2, JK] describes 'before creation' in a language
and imagery stamped strongly or faintly by the language and imagery of
the ancient Near East. It is 'chaos' as opposed to 'cosmos.' One cannot
speak of God creating chaos or formless pre-existent matter; this is a
contradiction in terms. 'God created' means God created order. This
sentiment is expressed in the Isaian passage, 'He (God) did not create
(bara) it (the universe) a chaos (tohu); he formed it to be inhabited'
(Isa 45:18). The problem of *creatio ex nihilo,* creation out of nothing,
is not a problem here; it became one for later generations when Hebrew
and Helenistic culture came together (cf. Wis 11:17; 2 Macc 7:28)."

Also, *The Jewish Study Bible* commentary on Genesis 2:1, page 13, states:

"To modern people, the opposite of the created order is 'nothing,' that
is, a vacuum. To the ancients, the opposite of the created order was
something much worse than 'nothing.' It was an active, malevolent force
we can best term 'chaos.' In this verse, chaos is envisioned as a dark,
undifferentiated mass of water...to say that a deity had subdued chaos is
to give him the highest praise."

Thanks again for an interesting discussion, and please comment further if
anyone has additional input.

John Kesler
Charleston, WV

Additionally, in the Baylonian creation epic Enuma Elish, water exists before the creation of heaven and earth. Even gods didn't always exist, but came about when "sweet" and "bitter" water combined:

Quote:

Tablet 1
When there was no heaven, no earth, no height, no depth, no name, when Apsu was alone, the sweet water, the first begetter; and Tiamat the bitter water, and that return to the womb, her Mummu, when there were no gods-

When sweet and bitter mingled together, no reed was plaited, no rushes muddied the water, the gods were nameless, nature less, futureless, then from Apsu and Tiamat in the waters gods were created, in the waters silt precipitated...

semiopen · 10-13-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I never noticed before that God didn't create water.

You may be interested in a post I made on another list in 2005. If you click the link, you can read other posts in that thread titled "Creation Ex Nihilo?"

Additionally, in the Baylonian creation epic Enuma Elish, water exists before the creation of heaven and earth. Even gods didn't always exist, but came about when "sweet" and "bitter" water combined:

Thanks John,

Creation ex nihilo in Judaism seems to be Talmudic. I dsicussed this with my rabbi and he said that the opinion was "unanimous" which seemed mysterious because it doesn't seem to be that way if one reads the discussions.

"Unanimous" seems to be a code word that means it is not acceptable to disagree with this opinion.

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10-12-2009, 10:23 PM	#2
ughaibu Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Japan Posts: 8,492	Isn't there a thread about this already.

10-13-2009, 04:28 AM	#4
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	I suspect an entire book could be written about the first line of Genesis. For instance, what exactly does "in the beginning" mean? The Big Bang? The moment Sol began fusing hydrogen? The coalescing of the matter that formed the planets? And what was meant by "heaven"? God's abode (as Genesis seems to say)? Or the sky? Or the afterlife?

10-13-2009, 06:49 AM	#6
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	I never noticed before that God didn't create water. That's a simple and elegant point that really defines the issue. Thanks for posting this.

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