Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 07-13-2010, 11:53 PM

Abe, all this back and forth re John the Baptist and the 'embarrassment' of his baptism of Jesus - is truly mind-blogging. You have not established whether your main dog in this particular 'fight' - John the Baptist - is a historical figure. And, no, relying upon Josephus will not do that. Josephus is not a simple, straight forward, historical writing. Josephus is writing 'salvation' history - an interpretation of, in this case, the history of the Herodian period. Thus, historical facts mingled with an interpretation of those facts as they relate to his own prophetic interests. Don't be short-sighted here and think you can trump any argument re John the Baptist with a quote from Josephus. You cannot do that. Josephus can be viewed as backup for the pseudo-historical gospel storyline instead of as proof positive that the gospel storyline is historical. Big difference.

As for John the Baptist being, in the gospel storyline, a forerunner for the Jesus figure, here is one way to view that idea. In the gospel storyline John the Baptist was beheaded. So, a forerunner to the Jesus storyline was beheaded. Jesus is said to be from the line of David, Jewish. Here is one such historical figures that was beheaded. He is the Hasmonean Antigonus. Beheaded in 37 BC - at the start of the reign of Herod the Great over Jerusalem. The gospel Jesus is said to have been born during the reign of Herod - no definite date given. Consequently, these two events - the beheading of Antigonus and the birth of the gospel Jesus are close enough to suggest a 'spiritual', an interpretative, connection re a forerunner that was beheaded. A connection that would, in the gospel storyline, be brought forward to the 'embarrassing' baptism of Jesus by his forerunner John the Baptist. Josephus concentrating, in his own John the Baptist storyline, on a pseudo-historical repeat of the Antigonus historical story - re Herod getting rid of 'John the Baptist' because of John's political influence on the people.

Quote:

Antiquties book 18

Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause,

Antigonus II Mattathias

Quote:

Antigonus was handed over by Herod to the Romans for execution in 37 BC, after a short reign of three years during which he had led a fierce struggle of the people for independence against the Romans and Romanizers such as Herod.

Antigonus II Mattathias was the only anointed King of the Jews (messiah) historically recorded to have been scourged and crucified by the Romans. Cassius Dio's Roman History records: "These people [the Jews] Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a stake and scourged, a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans, and so slew him."[2] In his Life of Antony, Plutarch claims that Antony had Antigonus beheaded, "the first example of that punishment being inflicted on a king"

Thus, the Jesus movement, the spiritual Jesus movement, got going only when the historical rule by those of the Hasmonean bloodline came to an end.
Abe, try thinking about the bigger historical picture instead of getting bogged down with whether the gospel baptism of the Jesus figure by the John the Baptist figure was an embarrassment or not....

Dave31 · 07-15-2010, 04:39 PM

I've seen no credible evidence to suggest John the Baptist or Jesus existed as historical characters, let alone did and said the things claimed in the bible, including baptism.

There are parallels with both baptism and the scripture, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," and both may be found in Egypt long prior to Jesus or Christianity.

Quote:

"...right from the beginning of the Pyramid Texts appears an obvious comparison to the gospel story: At PT 1/T 5, the sky goddess Nut, speaking from heaven regarding the deceased, who assumes the role of Osiris, remarks, “...This is my son, my first born...this is my beloved, with whom I have been satisfied.”

Compare this scripture with that found at Matthew 3:17: “and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.’”

- Christ in Egypt, page 31

* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.

There is an entire chapter regarding Egyptian baptism in Christ in Egypt, which includes the baptism of Osiris, Horus etc.

ApostateAbe · 07-15-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

I've seen no credible evidence to suggest John the Baptist or Jesus existed as historical characters, let alone did and said the things claimed in the bible, including baptism.

There are parallels with both baptism and the scripture, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," and both may be found in Egypt long prior to Jesus or Christianity.

Quote:

"...right from the beginning of the Pyramid Texts appears an obvious comparison to the gospel story: At PT 1/T 5, the sky goddess Nut, speaking from heaven regarding the deceased, who assumes the role of Osiris, remarks, “...This is my son, my first born...this is my beloved, with whom I have been satisfied.”

Compare this scripture with that found at Matthew 3:17: “and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.’”

- Christ in Egypt, page 31

* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.

There is an entire chapter regarding Egyptian baptism in Christ in Egypt, which includes the baptism of Osiris, Horus etc.

OK, so you, aa5874 and maryhelena all believe that JtB was only a myth--a surprising number of advocates, actually. What do you make of the JtB cult that existed in the first century according to Josephus? Josephus seems to describe JtB as though he was much like an ordinary founder of an ordinary cult, which may explain why so many mythicists believe that he really did exist. What do you take to be the best explanation for the myth of JtB? What previous myths does he correspond to?

Toto · 07-15-2010, 06:14 PM

3 threads on this that are not archived:

RogueBibleScholar: Often overlooked wrinkles in the TF and John the Baptist in the Antiquities

Rivka Nir 2009 SBL paper on Josephus on John the Baptist: A Christian Interpolation?

Religion of John the Baptist

Toto · 07-15-2010, 07:38 PM

A thread from the archives: Josephus on John the Baptist

This topic has been a hot topic here for years.

The mythicist case for John the Baptist is based on themes related to Oannes, a name for the Babylonian god Enki who was responsible for purification through water rituals.

From here

Quote:

Jesus allegedly was born on the winter solstice (when the sun starts to reappear), six months after John was born on the summer solstice (when the sun starts to disappear); John baptises with water (the symbol of Ea) and Jesus with fire (the symbol of the sun); and Jesus is born to a young virgin whereas John is born to an old married woman. These comparisons, together with the biblical passage where John says to Jesus "as you become more, I must become less", lead Campbell to think that John is used in the story as a representation of the moon, and Jesus as the sun.

Toto · 07-15-2010, 07:41 PM

There seems to be some revision of which god Oannes represents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oannes#As_Oannes

aa5874 · 07-15-2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

OK, so you, aa5874 and maryhelena all believe that JtB was only a myth--a surprising number of advocates, actually....

I did NOT say that John the Baptist was a myth. Why do you continue to mis-represent my position?

My position is that John the Baptist was mentioned in Antiquities of the Jews 18.5.2 and it cannot be found that John the Baptist baptized Jesus or preached the remission of sins through baptism.

And the existence or non-existence of John the Baptist has no bearing whatsoever on the existence on non-existence of Jesus just as the existence or non-existence of Herodias, Herod, Aretas, and Philip the tetrarch cannot confirm the existence or non-existence of John the Baptist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

What do you make of the JtB cult that existed in the first century according to Josephus? Josephus seems to describe JtB as though he was much like an ordinary founder of an ordinary cult, which may explain why so many mythicists believe that he really did exist. What do you take to be the best explanation for the myth of JtB? What previous myths does he correspond to?

There is simply not enough sources of antiquity to demonstrate the existence or non-existence of John the Baptist and since there is no real evidence that the passage was tampered with, it may be that John the Baptist was likely to be a figure of history.

ApostateAbe · 07-15-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

OK, so you, aa5874 and maryhelena all believe that JtB was only a myth--a surprising number of advocates, actually....

I did NOT say that John the Baptist was a myth. Why do you continue to mis-represent my position?

My apologies.

maryhelena · 07-16-2010, 01:01 AM

Abe, I think it would be a good idea to get a bit more familiar with the writing of Josephus. So, in that regard, I've typed some info from a very interesting book. After considering this material, if you still want to consider Josephus to be simply an historian - then, really, there is nothing more that I can say. Get to know what you are dealing with is the best advise I can give you.

Quote:

(see the book: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis (or via: amazon.co.uk)"[/I] by Robert Karl Gnuse.

Google Books.)

From pages 5 to 33.

(Josephus) He observes that his father, Matthias, belonged to the first twenty-four priestly classes (Life), and through his mother he was connected to the old royal Hasmonean or Maccabean family (Life 8). These priestly and royal credentials not only provided him with respect but gave credibility to his mission as a prophetic historian. Priests were perceived as being well-versed in the skills of interpretation, and a Maccabean ancestor (John Hyrcanus) was portrayed by Josephus as having prophetic skills in addition to being priest and king.....

Joseph claims he was a child prodigy, who investigated the belies of the major Jewish sects.......Scholars discuss which of these traditions might have influenced Josephus the most in regard to his prophetic abilities, including thre skill of dream interpretations........Others accept Josephus’ own statements (War 3.351-353) that his priestly background in interpreting scripture gave him prophetic and oneirocritical skills.....

It is suggested that Josephus read the traditions of the past through the subjective lens of his own age, infatuated as it was with the phenomenon of dreams, and he ‘modelled this practice of prophetic activity on his own experience as a clairvoyant’. By his own testimony Josephus interpreted dreams o as to forsee the triumph of Rome over the Jews (War 3.351-353)....His prediction that Vespasian would become emperor (War 3.400-402)....and the claim to have predicted Jotapata’s fall (War 3.406-408) may have originated in those dreams. He regards himself as having affinity with his namesake in Genesis, Joseph, the interpreter of dreams....

Other authors suggest his ability was merely a mode of biblical exegesis, non-priestly in origin, and it was associated more with prophetic skills. Finally, a few commentators suggest an Essenic origin for his interest in dreams. Josephus does refer to Simon the Essene positively as a dream interpreter in War 2.112-113 and Ant 17.345-348, and he acknowledges Essenic skill in predicting the future, which came from their exegetical and oneirocritical abilities. In particular, Josephus favourably mentions the activity of Simon the Essene; Menahem, who foretold Herod’s s rise to power (Ant 15.78-80) and Judas, who foretold the death of Antigonus (War 1.78-80 = Ant 13.311-313)....

The significance of dreams and dream reports in Josephus for providing us insight into his religious perceptions cannot be underestimated. Josephus is a product of the first century A.D. Hellenistic world with its interest in dreams and apparitions. ......There is another aspect which also deserves mention. The dream experience is part of the greater phenomenon of a prophet in the mind of Josephus. Prophets received and interpreted dreams; Josephus received and interpreted dreams. By reference to these many dreams Josephus may tell us something about himself....

The primary function of the prophets for Josephus was to predict the future and to enlighten future generations of their fate, “for whatever happens to us whether for good or ill comes about in accordance with their prophecies” (Ant 10.35)....

Josephus’ prophetic role as historian merits special attention.....In War 1.18-19 he declares that he will begin writing his history where the prophets ended theirs, so he is continuing this part of their prophetic function. According to Ap.1.29 the priests were custodians of the nation’s historical records, and in Ap.1.37 inspired prophets wrote that history. As a priest Josephus is a custodian of his people’s traditions, and by continuing that history in the Jewish War and subsequently by rewriting it in his Antiquities, he is a prophet. For Josephus prophets and historians preserve the past and predict the future, and he has picked up the mantle of creating prophetic writings. Perhaps, in his own mind he is the first since the canonical prophets to generate inspired historiography....

In his speech before the walls of Jerusalem Josephus compares himself directly to Jeremiah (War 5.391-39)......Scholars notice a number of parallels between the two men in Josephus’ writing.....Both were spokespersons for God and prophets of doom, and this brought them into conflict with religious and political leaders.....

There are similar parallels between Ezekiel and Josephus, for Ezekiel also was a prophet during Jerusalem’s first destruction......

Another significant person with whom Josephus identifies is Daniel, who more than any other prophet was a visionary and dream interpreter. Josephus probably assumes that he functions like Daniel, especially in regard to the skills of prophetic prediction and dream interpretation. The similarities are as follows. 1) Both were distinguished from their youth as prodigies (Daniel.1.4, Ant 10.186-189, Life 8). 2) Both were of royal descent (Daniel 1.3, Ant 10.186, Life 1-4) 3) AQ foreign ruler changed the names of both men (Daniel 1.7). 4) Both functioned as prophets for a defeated people. 5)They experienced prison at some time in their lives for their convictions or actions. 6) They were released from prison at the command of a foreign king. 7) Both men subsequently advised these kings and were rewarded for that service. (Daniel. 5:11, 29, Ant.10.237). Their manner of speaking was always bold. 8) Their enemies accused them of treason. Josephus stresses the charges against Daniel, for this increases the similarity with his own experience. (Daniel 6:4, Ant.10.212-24, 250-251, 256-261). Both were thrown into a ‘pit’. .........for Josephus it was the cave at Jotapata, for Daniel it was the lions’ den in Daniel 6......False accusations were brought against both men, who survived and were honoured by the foreign king. 11) ......

(googlebooks review runs out here....)

He probably wishes that the Jewish readers in his audience would sense the same parallels. .......The totality of these similarities indicates further that Josephus views himself as a prophet.....

However, the emphasis upon prophets and their predictions more importantly reflects Josephus’ own self-understanding. He may not have been a prophet in the same mode as the canonical prophets, but he was one nevertheless. It is in this context of prophetic concerns that we locate Josephus’ interest in dream reports.......

Josephus was a man of his era. The political maelstrom of his age shaped his experience and led him to create the corpus of writings which bears his name. He felt led by some divine inspiration to be the ideological representative of his people, both as a prophet and historian. Part of his prophetic identity involves the reception and interpretation of dreams, and hence he finds the dreams of his predecessors to be of interest.

my bolding

footnote: I've never looked at the parallels between Josephus and Daniel - looks to me that the figure of 'Josephus' is not that much different in makeup from the gospel figure of Jesus - both find their 'home' within the pages of the OT...it's beginning to look to me that the 'Josephus' figure is the apocalyptic figure that has been fused, within the Jesus mythology, to the earlier cynic sage type Jesus....thus indicating a developing Jesus mythology...

Littlejohn · 07-16-2010, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

I've seen no credible evidence to suggest John the Baptist or Jesus existed as historical characters, let alone did and said the things claimed in the bible, including baptism.

There are parallels with both baptism and the scripture, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," and both may be found in Egypt long prior to Jesus or Christianity.

Quote:

"...right from the beginning of the Pyramid Texts appears an obvious comparison to the gospel story: At PT 1/T 5, the sky goddess Nut, speaking from heaven regarding the deceased, who assumes the role of Osiris, remarks, “...This is my son, my first born...this is my beloved, with whom I have been satisfied.”

Compare this scripture with that found at Matthew 3:17: “and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.’”

- Christ in Egypt, page 31
.

* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.

There is an entire chapter regarding Egyptian baptism in Christ in Egypt, which includes the baptism of Osiris, Horus etc.
.

Very good, Dave!...Very good!

This supports very well what I had already guessed and found!

Thank you, very much!

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

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07-15-2010, 06:14 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	3 threads on this that are not archived: RogueBibleScholar: Often overlooked wrinkles in the TF and John the Baptist in the Antiquities Rivka Nir 2009 SBL paper on Josephus on John the Baptist: A Christian Interpolation? Religion of John the Baptist

07-15-2010, 07:41 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There seems to be some revision of which god Oannes represents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oannes#As_Oannes

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