Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 06-14-2012, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi sotto voce,

Good point that "anointed" does not have to mean king, so the meaning is context dependent. We should take into account these verses

We should take into account these selected verses that support the monarchy aspect, and ignore the abundance of passages that support the soteriological aspect, which, as already stated, is primary? That's not a viable way to do scholarship.

'No longer will a man teach his neighbour, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord, "because I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Jer 31:34

'"You, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High, because you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins."' Lk 1:76-77 NIV

'"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."' Mt 1:21 NIV

'God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.' Col 2:13-14 NIV

'Forgive as the Lord forgave you.' Col 3:13 NIV

'How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!' Heb 9:14 NIV

'The church of God, which he bought with his own blood.' Ac 20:28 NIV

Lordship is consequence of atonement.

'We love because he first loved us.' 1 Jn 4:19 NIV

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

When we translate a proper name of a person, we may leave the name in the foreign language we find it in or do a literal translation. For example the name of the 19th Century Native American leader is Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake. It is commonly translated into English as "Sitting Bull."

When we look at the name "Jesus Christ," we see two words. Jesus is Joshua/Yeshua or "Yaweh saves." Yahweh is the name of the Jewish God, but God saves is probably the better translation, as the Jews regarded Yaweh as their God. Χριστός means "Anointed One." The anointed one is what the Jews called their King. Thus Χριστός is a term that means "king."

Therefore the translation into English of the name Jesus Christ should be "God Saves King" or perhaps more grammatically correct "God Saves the King."

It occurs to me that the best translation of the opening sentence in the Gospel of Mark, "Ἀρχὴ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ," should be: The beginning of the Good News/birth of God Saves the King, the son of God.

I think this translation would more correctly bring out the fairy tale nature of the ensuing story.

It would not be a good translation. A more realistic one would be:

The beginning of the good news of God Liberates, the Anointed, the manifestation of God.

Had Mark needed to, he could have been more mundanely specific:

The beginning of the good news of God Liberates of Nazareth, the Anointed, the manifestation of God.

The word 'Anointed' is context dependent: millions of people were anointed for medical reasons, but were not specially designated for that reason! The word 'christ' does indeed mean 'anointed', but it does not mean just 'king' or 'ruler'. In Israel, some were anointed on the forehead as signifying a special leadership role in the nation, as it denoted appointment by God, and gave the anointed special honour and 'holiness' on that account. A prophet, in Israel as elsewhere, was one who spoke to a nation to warn or advise, and also to predict events. Sometimes prophets were anointed, but always the High Priest, who was appointed from the start. At first Israel was a democracy (very probably an exemplar for Greece), but, against prophetic advice, a monarchy was established. Kings were also anointed.

Now Israel as a political state cannot be taken as the final condition intended by Jehovah, or a necessary one, if the Bible has any meaning. For one thing, it ceased to exist over 1800 years ago. For another, it did not exist for hundreds of years, from Abraham until Sinai, though the promise and pre-figurement of a single future priest and king were never far from events in that period. So the significance of anointing must now have a non-political, non-ritual value, or none at all.

Now Jesus was undoubtedly an Israelite, and undoubtedly a prophet, as his teaching shows; though he was by no means the only prophet; so the partial association of anointing with prophet-hood may aptly contrast with the claim for Jesus that he was the only priest, the only king, or lord. The second of these claims is contingent on the first. Jesus is lord only if his priesthood, i.e. the oblation of himself for atonement' is accepted. So the word Christ applied not only because of kingship, but also because Jesus is regarded as saviour, or one who sets consciences free.

Sheshbazzar · 06-14-2012, 11:06 AM

For ensample;

Forty one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine dead Israelites laying at the crossing of that Jordan, yet one,
from whom to require THE WORD of life.

shin or sin? How do you frame to pronounce it?

steve_bnk · 06-15-2012, 08:49 AM

It could point to the tag JC describing a movemnet rater than an individual.

From a political persepctive the JC of the gospels was predicting the end of the Jewish state, the 'apocolypse'.

Jesus Christ -- God saves Israel?

The way i look at it is like tryng to understand the meaning of a Jay Leno monologue using a dictionary and literal rendering of the words without knowing the nuances and cultural inflections..

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06-14-2012, 11:06 AM	#22
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	For ensample; Forty one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine dead Israelites laying at the crossing of that Jordan, yet one, from whom to require THE WORD of life. shin or sin? How do you frame to pronounce it?

06-15-2012, 08:49 AM	#23
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	It could point to the tag JC describing a movemnet rater than an individual. From a political persepctive the JC of the gospels was predicting the end of the Jewish state, the 'apocolypse'. Jesus Christ -- God saves Israel? The way i look at it is like tryng to understand the meaning of a Jay Leno monologue using a dictionary and literal rendering of the words without knowing the nuances and cultural inflections..

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