outhouse

You have no clue do you???


what paty of they can recite the OT verbatim by oral tradion dont you understand.

people can recite the koran verbatim.




we are talking about a ancient culture well practiced in oral tradition with a illiteracy rate of roughly 90%

How do you think legends survived 50-60 years after jesus was dead :constern01:

Toto

The examples of exact oral transmission involve students schooled in repeating sacred texts.

But the gospels only show a wandering preacher who posed riddles and told parables that people did not understand.

Legends survive or not, but these legends could have been invented, whether or not Jesus lived. You can't argue the accuracy of oral transmission by appealing to something that might or might not have been accurately transmitted.

LegionOnomaMoi

The question then becomes what model of oral transmission would fit in 1st century Palestine? A lot of work on this has been done since Bultmann's adoption of German folklore models. It's well known that for teachers in the hellenistic era memorization was key. Parables and aphorisms are readily memorized. Bultmann's approach was clearly flawed. But that doesn't mean that the rigid, controlled model of Bauckham is any more accurate. Werner Kelber's adoption of an oral-formulaic model seems equally unlikely.

Interestingly enough, when Gerhardsson's Memory and Manuscript first came out, it faced a great deal of criticism, including that of scholar and rabbi Jacob Neusner. However, the re-release of this work (which includes Gerhardsson's next contribution to the debate) was due to Neusner himself, who realized that critiques (including himself) had written off Gerhardsson for points he never made.

It's not unlikely a priori that during a time and in a culture where oral testimony was considered superior to textual, memorizing was a key component of teaching, and teachers used aphorisms and other readily memorized oral "genres" that the Jesus tradition involved a similar processes.

Kapyong

Gday all,

Yup.

But one would expect that if Jesus really told his followers how to pray by teaching them the Lord's Prayer, then it would have been remembered or recorded pretty well.

Instead we get several different versions in the Gospels, another version in the Didakhe, and a mish-mash of variants in the Gospel MSS.

Seems pretty strong evidence that Jesus did NOT teach any such prayer at all.


Kapyong

Toto

It could have happened, but is there any reason to think this did happen?

LegionOnomaMoi

Yes, there is some reason. Convincing enough? That's another matter. We know that in the hellenistic area oral transmission was trusted over and against textual sources. We know that Greek, Roman, and Rabbinic teachers required students to memorize their teachings. We know that a lot of the the "oral Jesus tradition" as reflected in the early christian sources are consistent with readily memorized teachings. But we don't know if the early "church" ensured that these teachings were reliably transmitted, they were readily added to, or transmitted without control.

Kapyong

Gday,

Well,
the Lord's Prayer was not reliably transmitted, we have several different versions.

The names of the apostles were not reliably transmitted, we have different lists.

The alleged words of God at the Jordan baptism were not reliably transmitted, we have two different versions.

The alleged speeches of Jesus were not reliably transmitted, we have various chopped up versions of his speeches.

The alleged last words of Jesus were not reliably transmitted, we have several different versions.

The alleged birth stories of Jesus were not reliably transmitted, we have different versions of the stories.

The alleged genealogy of Jesus was not reliably transmitted, we have two different versions.

The alleged trial of Jesus was not reliably transmitted, we have various different versions of the story.

The alleged easter morning events were not reliably transmitted, we have various different stories.

Indeed - most of the Jesus stories come in varying versions showing they were not reliably transmitted.

The Oral Tradition, if it ever existed at all, failed dismally.


Kapyong

LegionOnomaMoi

All your examples are actually supporting the opposite conclusion. For example, the "lord's prayer" is quite similar in our various early attestations. The names of the "12" are as well. But the real issue is how reliable and controlled the transmissiong of Jesus' were.

judge

Well if there was one then it has been extremely successful. For without it (if it existed) we would not have the worlds most influential religion 2000 years later, assuming of course there is any meaningful relationship between the oral stories and christianity

Kapyong

Gday,

WAR IS PEACE,
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY,
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.

Multiple different versions show accurate Oral Tradition ?!

Are you a Poe, or are you actually serious ?


We've seen how reliable it was - completely UNreliable.

If Jesus had really taught directly from mouth to ear, his words would have been recorded carefully. But the dozen or more variations show it never came from Jesus himself - various later Christians made up what ever they thought was right.

Even the alleged words of GOD HIMSELF were changed by later scribes!

Jesus' last words on the cross - the most dramatic moment of the whole story! And yet we have at least three different versions.

Tell us LegionOnomaMoi, what were the last words of Jesus?


Kapyong