Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 02-23-2012, 11:27 AM

Hi All,

Some people in another tread are seriously bringing up the absurd and irrational notion that Jesus' words were preserved in oral transmission.

Anyone who believes this should cite their evidence that a single message the size of a bible verse could be communicated accurately among even 100 people in a single community over one single hour, let only hundreds of messages across hundreds of diverse communities by tens of thousands of people over 30-50 years.

Please cite one scientific experiment that has even shown the possibility of such a thing.

Salman Rushdie did an experiment recently in verbal communications called "a Karma Chain." He gathered hundreds of people. One person told another person three short Buddhist verses. That person repeated the verse to another person until it came back to him after everyone has been told. The verses that Rushdie got back were totally different. Not a single word or idea was the same.

This was done April 30, 2011, Here are the results:

Quote:

1st Sutra: “Like a shimmering star, or a flickering lamp.”
Karma Chain Result: “Follow the glass stone. Follow the glass stone.”

2nd Sutra: “Fleeting autumn cloud, or a shining drop of morning dew.”
Karma Chain Result: “The droid from hell.”

3rd Sutra: “A phantom, a dream, a bubble, so is all the existence to be seen.”
Karma Chain Result: “If anything exists, it changes.”

Here is the event with pictures.

There seems to be some question as to how many people participated. This website says around 200, while others give 300.

Note this passage by Alex Mesoudi of the University of British Columbia from an article in the Journal of Social, Evolutionary, and Cultural Psychology
www.jsecjournal.com - 2007, 1 (2): 35-58.USING THE METHODS OF EXPERIMENTAL SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY TO STUDY CULTURAL EVOLUTION

Quote:

The linear transmission (or diffusion) chain method represents perhaps the simplest experimental procedure for studying cultural transmission. Devised by Bartlett (1932), this method resembles the children's game ‘Chinese whispers’ or ‘Telephone’, wherein some material relevant to a particular hypothesis is passed along linear chains of participants (figure 1). The first participant in the chain reads or hears some material (typically text or pictures), and then attempts to recall it. This recalled information is given to the second participant, who reads it and later recalls it in a similar way; this recall is passed on to the third participant, and so on along the chain. By measuring the changes that occur within the material as it is passed along the chain, or by comparing the rates at which different kinds of material degrades, the researcher can infer the operation of systematic biases in cultural transmission.

Bartlett (1932) reported results for various types of material: two folk tales, “The War of the Ghosts” (from Native American culture) and “The Son Who Tried to Outwit His Father” (from the Congo); passages describing a cricket match, an air raid, and how to play tennis; a joke; two arguments; and a series of pictures. The participants were mostly Cambridge undergraduates, with some undergraduates from India. A general finding was that the material rapidly became considerably shorter in length and lost much of its detail, with only the overall gist being preserved. A second general finding was that participants tended to distort the material to make it more coherent and consistent with their own pre-existing knowledge. “The War of the Ghosts,” for example, contained
many supernatural elements that were nonsensical to the British participants and were subsequently removed or replaced with more familiar events. These two processes, loss of detail and rationalization, led Bartlett to propose that remembering is primarily a reconstructive process and hardly ever a process of exact replication. Only the gist or overall impression of the material is preserved and is rebuilt around pre-existing
knowledge structures, or schemas. Bartlett also found that the folk stories were transmitted with greater accuracy than any of the other material, which he explained by typical folk tale, thus aiding recall.

In the 30 years following Bartlett’s (1932) original studies, several transmission chain studies were carried out which shared Bartlett’s general methodology but varied in the material used and participants tested. The transmission of stories was studied using chains of children (Northway, 1936) and adults of different professions (Maxwell, 1936) and nationalities (Talland, 1956). Allport and Postman (1947), Ward (1949), and Hall (1951) studied the transmission of pictorial rather than written stimuli. The results of these studies largely confirmed Bartlett’s original findings of a general reduction in the length or complexity of the material, that many of the details are lost, and only the overall gist or impression is preserved.

We should note that this is a description of results of experiments involving very short transmission chains of a few people over very short periods of time (hours). Imagining that words or stories about Jesus could be accurately transmitted for years is as ridiculous as believing that a man could throw a spear from Jerusalem to Rome.

It is absurd to think that the numerous contradictions, gaps and abnormalities presented by the gospel texts can be resolved with a magical appeal to the practice of oral transmission where contradictions, gaps and abnormalities are generated at a much greater rate than written transmission.

Until someone comes up with scientific evidence proving that sayings or stories could be accurately transmitted orally though large groups of diverse people for periods involving years, anybody who brings up the idea of such oral transmission should be laughed off the site.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

No one know's

You have a naive understanding of "oral tradition." IF (and I recognize that's a big IF actually), Matthew and Luke used Q material separately, then Q must be literary due to the integrity of the material in the two sources.

Of course, it could be that Luke and Matthew are not independent of each other. In which case, there is no need for Q. I believe this latter solution is more parsimonious.

arnoldo · 02-23-2012, 12:20 PM

Anthony Le Donne takes the stance that conflicting accounts of gospel events favor a historical basis for such accounts. Le Donne writes in Historical Jesus: What Can we Know and How Can we Know it (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

Please do not miss the beautiful irony here: It is when the editors of these stories disagree the most that we can most confidently postulate historical memory!

Google books provides a preview of the above quote on page pg. 130.

andrewcriddle · 02-23-2012, 12:52 PM

I think we should distinguish between claim a/ the Gospels are based on an oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus and claim b/ the Gospels are based on an accurate oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus.

Claim a/ could be true without implying the truth of claim b/.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 02-23-2012, 01:23 PM

Anthony Le Donne writes of refracted memory, as if you could triangulate your way back to the original from all of the inaccurate reports.

outhouse · 02-23-2012, 02:11 PM

It strikes me as funny that OP who knows nothing at all about ancient oral tadition tries to tear it down with a poor example of modern oral tradion with people not practiced in the art.

Its ignorance, nothing more.

OP you do realize much of the OT can be recited line for line with incredible accuracy, dont you????

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNs...he_Gospels.htm

The evidence shows that in oral cultures where memory has been trained for generations, oral memory can accurately preserve and pass on large amounts of information. Deuteronomy 6:4-9 reveals to us how important oral instruction and memory of divine teaching was stressed in Jewish culture. It is a well-known fact that the rabbis had the O.T. and much of the oral law committed to memory. The Jews placed a high value on memorizing whatever wri ting reflected inspired Scripture and the wisdom of God. I studied under a Greek professor who had the Gospels memorized word perfect. In a culture where this was practiced, memorization skills were far advanced compared to ours today. New Testament scholar Darrell Bock states that the Jewish culture was "a culture of memory."

Net2004 · 02-23-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

2 kings 22-23 relates the discovery of a 'book of the law' during king josiahs reign (640-609 bce) the multitude of reforms he carried out - purging the temple of heathen altars , eliminating child sacrifices, destroying the pagan house of male prostitutes , and so on - bears witness that even the most basic fundamentals of the law had been WIPED CLEAN FROM ISraelite conciousness.

WHERE were the LAW ABIDING jews HIDING? THese heathen practices outnumbered the torah law abiding jews? were they hiding in a cave?

about jesus' deciples,

does it look like that mark wanted to portray the deciples with awesome memories?

judge · 02-23-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

Some people in another tread are seriously bringing up the absurd and irrational notion that Jesus' words were preserved in oral transmission.

When spoken in Aramaic (as has been used by Aramaic speaking churches) some people think some words in the gospels appear to be in verse, or poetry. This may mean they could be more easily remembered.

Tow-wi-hon leh-Mes-ki-na beh-Rokh deh-Dil-hon hi mal-koo-tha deh-Shma-ya

Blessed are they who are poor in spirit because theirs is the kingdom of
Heaven

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ah-wi-la deh-Hen-on neth-bi-ah-on

Blessed are they who are mourning because they will be comforted

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ma-ki-kha deh-Hen-on nar-ton leh-Ar-eh-ah

Blessed are they who are meek because they will inherit the earth

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ail-in deh-Khaph-nin oo-Tse-hin leh-Khan-o-tha deh-Hen-on nes-beh-on

Blessed are they {those} who hunger and thirst for righteousness because they will be satisfied

Tow-wi-hon leh-Mer-akh-ma-nah deh-Eh-li-hon ne-hoo-own rakh-ma

Blessed are they who are merciful because upon them will be mercies

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ail-in deh-De-khin beh-Leb-hon deh-Hen-on nekh-zon leh-A-la-ha

Blessed are they {those} who are pure in their hearts because they will see God

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ew-di shla-ma deh-Bi-noh-ee deh-A-la-ha neth-qron

Blessed are they who make peace because the sons of God they will be called

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ail-in deh-Ath-ridth-eph-oh me-tul ka-no-tha deh-Dil-hon hi mal-koo-tha deh-Shma-ya

Blessed are they {those} who are persecuted because of righteousness because theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Tow-wi-kon a-ma-ti deh-Meh-khas-din lu-khon oo-Radth-pin lu-khon oo-Am-rin el-i-kon kul me-la bi-sha me-tul-thi beh-Dtha-ga-lo-tha

Blessed are you whenever they curse you and they persecute you and they say every evil word about you falsely

Hi-din khidth-ah-oh oo-Ro-zo deh-Aj-ruh-khon sa-gi beh-Shma-ya ha-kha-na gir ruh-dtha-pho leh-Nah-bi-ya deh-Men quh-dtham-i-kon

Then rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven for likewise they persecuted the prophets before you

PhilosopherJay · 02-23-2012, 03:20 PM

Hi andrewcriddle,

This is an excellent point.

Still, there is usually an implication when people refer to oral tradition that at least some of it reflects something historically real or true. If people would acknowledge that any text coming from an oral tradition is even less likely to reflect an historical reality than one starting from a written record, it would be a forward step.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I think we should distinguish between claim a/ the Gospels are based on an oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus and claim b/ the Gospels are based on an accurate oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus.

Claim a/ could be true without implying the truth of claim b/.

Andrew Criddle

outhouse · 02-23-2012, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi andrewcriddle,

This is an excellent point.

Still, there is usually an implication when people refer to oral tradition that at least some of it reflects something historically real or true. If people would acknowledge that any text coming from an oral tradition is even less likely to reflect an historical reality than one starting from a written record, it would be a forward step.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I think we should distinguish between claim a/ the Gospels are based on an oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus and claim b/ the Gospels are based on an accurate oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus.

Claim a/ could be true without implying the truth of claim b/.

Andrew Criddle

whether one uses literature or oral tradion, has nothing to do with historicity.

in the bibles case it really doesnt fly because the bible was written from oral tradition being not one scribe/author was a witness to anything.

PhilosopherJay · 02-23-2012, 04:28 PM

Hi Judge,

Even if some part of the Gospels were originally songs in Aramaic, this does not show that drastic changes did not occur over time, especially when it was translated into Greek. Look at the changes that were made to one popular and famous song when it went from German (1928) to English (1954) in the last century.

Quote:

Song Mackie Messer ,
Original Song Lyrics from Bertolt Brecht, 1928, translated into literal English

And the shark, he has teeth
And he wears them in his face
And MacHeath, he has a knife
But the knife you don't see

On a beautiful blue Sunday
Lies a dead man on the Strand*
And a man goes around the corner
Whom they call Mack the Knife

And Schmul Meier is missing
And many a rich man
And his money has Mack the Knife,
On whom they can't pin anything.

Jenny Towler was found
With a knife in her chest
And on the wharf walks Mack the Knife,
Who knows nothing about all this.

And the minor-aged widow,
Whose name everyone knows,
Woke up and was violated
Mack, what was your price?

And some are in the darkness
And the others in the light
But you only see those in the light
Those in the darkness you don't see

But you only see those in the light
Those in the darkness you don't see

Quote:

Mack the Knife, translation by Marc Blitzstein English version made popular by Louis Armstrong (1955), Bobby Darin (1959)

Oh the shark has pretty teeth, dear
And he shows them pearly white
Just a jack knife has MacHeath, dear
And he keeps it out of sight

When the shark bites with his teeth, dear
Scarlet billows start to spread
Fancy gloves though wears MacHeath, dear
So there's not a trace of red

On the sidewalk, Sunday morning
Lies a body oozing life
Someone's sneaking round the corner
Is the someone Mack the knife?

From a tug boat by the river
A cement bag's dropping down
The cement's just for the weight, dear
Bet you Mack is back in town

Louie Miller disappeared, dear
After drawing out his cash
And MacHeath spends like a sailor
Did our boy do something rash?

Sukey Tawdry, Jenny Diver
Polly Peachum, Lucy Brown
Oh the line forms on the right, dear
Now that Mack is back in town

Only the words "shark," "teeth," "knife" "Sunday" and "corner" have survived the translation. The meaning has been drastically altered.

This does not take into account the enormous changes the Aramaic poetry would have undergone over years in oral transmission.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi All,

Some people in another tread are seriously bringing up the absurd and irrational notion that Jesus' words were preserved in oral transmission.

When spoken in Aramaic (as has been used by Aramaic speaking churches) some people think some words in the gospels appear to be in verse, or poetry. This may mean they could be more easily remembered.

Tow-wi-hon leh-Mes-ki-na beh-Rokh deh-Dil-hon hi mal-koo-tha deh-Shma-ya

Blessed are they who are poor in spirit because theirs is the kingdom of
Heaven

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ah-wi-la deh-Hen-on neth-bi-ah-on

Blessed are they who are mourning because they will be comforted

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ma-ki-kha deh-Hen-on nar-ton leh-Ar-eh-ah

Blessed are they who are meek because they will inherit the earth

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ail-in deh-Khaph-nin oo-Tse-hin leh-Khan-o-tha deh-Hen-on nes-beh-on

Blessed are they {those} who hunger and thirst for righteousness because they will be satisfied

Tow-wi-hon leh-Mer-akh-ma-nah deh-Eh-li-hon ne-hoo-own rakh-ma

Blessed are they who are merciful because upon them will be mercies

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ail-in deh-De-khin beh-Leb-hon deh-Hen-on nekh-zon leh-A-la-ha

Blessed are they {those} who are pure in their hearts because they will see God

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ew-di shla-ma deh-Bi-noh-ee deh-A-la-ha neth-qron

Blessed are they who make peace because the sons of God they will be called

Tow-wi-hon leh-Ail-in deh-Ath-ridth-eph-oh me-tul ka-no-tha deh-Dil-hon hi mal-koo-tha deh-Shma-ya

Blessed are they {those} who are persecuted because of righteousness because theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Tow-wi-kon a-ma-ti deh-Meh-khas-din lu-khon oo-Radth-pin lu-khon oo-Am-rin el-i-kon kul me-la bi-sha me-tul-thi beh-Dtha-ga-lo-tha

Blessed are you whenever they curse you and they persecute you and they say every evil word about you falsely

Hi-din khidth-ah-oh oo-Ro-zo deh-Aj-ruh-khon sa-gi beh-Shma-ya ha-kha-na gir ruh-dtha-pho leh-Nah-bi-ya deh-Men quh-dtham-i-kon

Then rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven for likewise they persecuted the prophets before you

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02-23-2012, 12:52 PM	#3
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I think we should distinguish between claim a/ the Gospels are based on an oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus and claim b/ the Gospels are based on an accurate oral tradition going back to the ministry of Jesus. Claim a/ could be true without implying the truth of claim b/. Andrew Criddle

02-23-2012, 01:23 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Anthony Le Donne writes of refracted memory, as if you could triangulate your way back to the original from all of the inaccurate reports.

02-23-2012, 02:11 PM	#5
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	It strikes me as funny that OP who knows nothing at all about ancient oral tadition tries to tear it down with a poor example of modern oral tradion with people not practiced in the art. Its ignorance, nothing more. OP you do realize much of the OT can be recited line for line with incredible accuracy, dont you???? http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNs...he_Gospels.htm The evidence shows that in oral cultures where memory has been trained for generations, oral memory can accurately preserve and pass on large amounts of information. Deuteronomy 6:4-9 reveals to us how important oral instruction and memory of divine teaching was stressed in Jewish culture. It is a well-known fact that the rabbis had the O.T. and much of the oral law committed to memory. The Jews placed a high value on memorizing whatever wri ting reflected inspired Scripture and the wisdom of God. I studied under a Greek professor who had the Gospels memorized word perfect. In a culture where this was practiced, memorization skills were far advanced compared to ours today. New Testament scholar Darrell Bock states that the Jewish culture was "a culture of memory."

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