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Old 04-13-2007, 08:03 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by RED DAVE
From praxeus:You never claimed, nor have I said you did.]
You certainly strongly implied that it was my view.

"It's real simple, praxeus. Just find some record of the moment when the entire Egyptian civilization (about 2 million people) was wiped out...Then explain how it was reconstituted with the original language, religion, culture, economy, etc., with no gap."

As for the question of my chronology, salvanoot (patience). It is a new field of research for me and I am looking forward to studying various materials, especially an article that discusses secular chronologies in depth that I should have in a couple of weeks to a month. At that time I will share with you from my studies and views.

Shalom,
Steven
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:39 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Gracchus View Post
I believe that the existence of continuous civilizations in China, Mesopotamia, Egypt, et al.
Mesopotamia and Egypt. There's no evidence for written records in China before c.1400 BC, with the Oracle Bone script being the earliest.

Traditional Chinese historiography goes back to c.2800 BC, but that includes semi-divine rulers and the unattested Xia dynasty.

Not that this makes the worldwide deluge story any less wrong.:Cheeky:
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Old 04-13-2007, 11:52 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by spin View Post
Pssst, don't tell anyone but the sphynx was was constructed from a local outcrop at the time of Chephren and not unstrangely it had the face of Chephren. Much of the finer detail has been eroded and it has been restored a few times, most famously by Tuthmoses IV.

spin
Guess you aren't aware of the strong possibility that the Sphynx was
originally carved as a lion, and 1000s of years later, the head was reformed
to appear as man. They decided this because it's disproportionatly small,
when compared to the body
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Old 04-14-2007, 12:23 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
Guess you aren't aware of the strong possibility that the Sphynx was originally carved as a lion, and 1000s of years later, the head was reformed to appear as man. They decided this because it's disproportionatly small, when compared to the body
You mean although there's no evidence that there was a lion's head, there was a lion's head. Convincing, don't you think?

The location of the sphinx is where local stone was excavated for the core of Chephren's pyramid. There would not have been this stone outcrop without the necessity of the stone that was removed to form it. The sphinx dates to after the quarrying of the stone, ie after the building of the Chephren pyramid.


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Old 04-14-2007, 05:22 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by RED DAVE View Post
True.

And in the spirit of GilgameshEnkidu's name, and while we're waiting for praxeus to respond to the questions put to him, here's a link to the text of the "Epic of Gilgamesh," the earliest Middle Eastern version of the Flood story. The Flood appears on tablet XI.

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/...ian/gilgamesh/

RED DAVE

Hehe thanks

Another interesting thing to point out for bible literalists is the question of how the Sumerians fit into a world where there was a flood 4500 years ago. The Sumerians date back, what, 9000 years? and they have stories of creation and a flood remarkably similar to the bible. Their flood story dates far before 4500 yaars ago, and far before the bible was ever written.
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Old 04-14-2007, 06:21 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
Okay, I guess I would have to begin with the easiest
item to produce reasonable evidence. The idea of many
cultures, with a similar story of a universal flood.
Remember that I cannot date it, as some others try
to do. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened a
million years ago. So don't assume any dates when
looking at other accounts. Needless to say, if you
already have decided it never happened, then no
evidence of any kind will convince you otherwise.
You are apparently among the majority of people. The one who has no idea of the history of geology. Newsflash: It was bible-believing Christians in the early 19th century who concluded that a global flood never happened. All evidence has confirmed this conclusion since then, none had contradicted it.
Try this: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p82.htm

Quote:
All I'm presenting here is that if it never happened at
all, why the many different accounts from all over.
Isn't it funny that we have only flood legends from people who live in areas which are prone to flooding?

Quote:
It's not your typical "normal" event, like a volcanic
eruption, or earthquake or hurricane.
Floods are not normal? Do you ever watch the news? Does "New Orleans" ring a bell?
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Old 04-14-2007, 06:25 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
I'm aware of the Black Sea creation theory, which has
pretty solid support. If you use the idea that localized
equals or becomes world wide, then there should also be
accounts of a world wide fire, which burned everything,
or volcano which wiped out the earth, or pestilence, or
earthquake, or wind etc.
Neither fires, nor vulcanoes, nor earthquakes are that widespread as great floods. Which still happen often today. Watch the news.
And I'm quite sure that many people believed the pest was "world wide" in the middle ages.
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Old 04-15-2007, 05:17 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
I was wondering just where there is a website
that could confirm contiguous Egyptian
civilizations from perhaps (9200 BC) to
around (2000 BC). After all, when the
archaologists examine sites, it's not like
they are looking for something like a
civilization time gap. Just what would this
look like? If water rose up, and removed only
carbon cycle life, how would one determine this
thousands of years later through archaological
investigations? Water, (less than a year's
worth), would probably leave most structures in
that particular region in tact. It also wouldn't
bother anything that didn't float. So then a
couple hundred years later, everything's totally
dry, and somebody stumbles on to a bunch of hewn
stones, temples? and whatever else was once there,
tells all his buddies, and they all move to that
spot, and pick it up from where it left off. They
may have some hardened mud removal chores, roof
restorations etc. Then 5000 years later, a group
of archaologists come along, check it out, and
say, "guess there aint no "time gap" here, let's
check the next site". So just what are we looking
for in a time gap?
Not sure of a website, although search Zahwi Hawass (not sure if I spelled the first correctly, but the second is) and you should find lots on Egyptology. I like The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt; ed: Ian Shaw, Oxford University Press, 2000; ISBN: 0-19-280293-3. Very thorough overview IMO, but still accessible for the non-specialist (although I may not be the best, I grew up with egyptology on the brain thanks to my mother's interest).
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:34 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Dave Reed View Post
Okay, thanks for taking the time to explain that. The only
thing I'd question right off hand is the salinity of the
water. I think it would be slight, because the amount of
water depicted is MUCH greater than the oceans. The
Sphynx body, (perhaps not the head), is thought to have
been carved out of limestone about 10,000 BC. It does
show water erosion, but the type associated with rain,
not the etching your talking about. I would think if it can
survive that long without dissolving, the limestone there
is tougher than you're making it out to be.
Dave -

Note that I didn't say that the stone would -melt- but that it would be etched. It would -show- in the archaeological record. Archaeologists, contrary to what some might think, look at every last scrap of information to put together what happened. They don't rely -solely- on documentation ...

- Hex
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Old 04-16-2007, 10:13 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Sven View Post
Floods are not normal? Do you ever watch the news? Does "New Orleans" ring a bell?
No coincidence the great civilizations of the past had similar deluge accounts.



They all began in valleys of great rivers. These great rivers have two main features to explain this: (1) Communication (barges) and (2) Floods! And there you have the two main features of the stroy, floods and barges. Only people who embarked on something the -Duh!- floats would survive and re-populate the kingdom in question.

The problem with the map is that they didn't draw the rivers. In China, we have the Huang-Ho (Yellow River), Egypt, the Nile, Mespotamia, Euphrates and Tigirs, India, the Indus... etc.

No mystery, no mysticism, only science.



-------

Yellow hunter-gatherers
Purple nomadic pastoralists
Lime simple farming societies
Coral complex farming societies/chiefdoms
Lightslategray state societies
White uninhabited
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