Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johann_Kaspar · 12-03-2003, 05:54 AM

For those who can read French, here is a link to a French association:

http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernest-renan/

And even two texts in English:

New methodology:
http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...%20english.htm

Celse:
http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...lsenglish2.htm

I am highly recommanding the texts by Gys Devic.

12-03-2003, 06:02 AM

Hi,

Looks like the usual internet scribbler rubbish to me. The internet is full of scribblers like this who seem to think they know better than a vast number of professional historians. You really would be better off reading some books for a change rather than sub-undergraduate attempts at revisionist history. His mistakes are too numerous to mention but one can be easily dealt with - he says the Library of Celsus was destroyed by the (Christian) Byzantines. False, the library was destroyed by (pagan) Goths when they sacked Ephesus: From About.com: "The interior of the library was burned during a Goth invasion in 262 AD, and in the 10th century, an earthquake brought down the facade. The building we see today was carefully restored by the Austrian Archaeological Institute."

On the subject of Constantine read The Early Church by Henry Chadwick - recommended by all and sundry. After some proper reading you'll be able to recognise the more valuble stuff on the net. This site is not it.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Johann_Kaspar · 12-03-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede
Looks like the usual internet scribbler rubbish to me. The internet is full of scribblers like this who seem to think they know better than a vast number of professional historians.

Sorry but I cannot accept such dismissing and arrogance. You are insulting people I know and for whom I have the greatest consideration. Yes, that web site is poor, because it is a group of people more at ease with books than with computers. It does not allow you to write those words. It is only a sign of your superficiality.

Quote:

You really would be better off reading some books for a change rather than sub-undergraduate attempts at revisionist history.

It is true that as a xian you know a lot about revisionnism, by profession if I may add. You know nothing about me, least what I read or am reading.

Quote:

His mistakes are too numerous to mention but one can be easily dealt with - he says the Library of Celsus was destroyed by the (Christian) Byzantines. False, the library was destroyed by (pagan) Goths when they sacked Ephesus: From About.com: "The interior of the library was burned during a Goth invasion in 262 AD, and in the 10th century, an earthquake brought down the facade. The building we see today was carefully restored by the Austrian Archaeological Institute."

Please make a list and I will forward your numerous remarks about alleged mistakes to Gys Devic. Maybe About.com is like the bible? It contains the true Truth?!

Quote:

On the subject of Constantine read The Early Church by Henry Chadwick - recommended by all and sundry. After some proper reading you'll be able to recognise the more valuble stuff on the net. This site is not it.

Maybe you are thinking that your propaganda site is valuable? Sorry, but I do not share your values. By the way I was not expecting to find xians on this forum. At the end it is funny to see one more xian not practising what his faith should command him.

Toto · 12-03-2003, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bede

. . .usual internet scribbler rubbish

. . .scribblers like this . . .

. . .sub-undergraduate attempts at revisionist history.

<mod mode on>

Please tone down the rhetoric. If the errors are so blatant, you can surely point them out in a more dispassionate way.

Thanks for your attention.

Celsus · 12-03-2003, 12:25 PM

Bede, take note of the disclaimer first:

Quote:

Les opinions exprim�es dans les articles des Cahiers le sont sous Ia seule responsabilit� de leurs auteurs. Le Cercle Ernest Renan, refusant tout dogmatisme et estimant que nul ne poss�de la V�rit� mais se doit de Ia rechercher, se fait un devoir de publier des textes qui refl�tent les points de vue les plus divers et parfois oppos�s. Il n �y a pas chez nous de censure. Les seules "doctrines" dont peut se targuer notre Cercle sont la recherche de Ia connaissance dans Ia tol�rance et Ia remise en question permanente des opinions admises, reprenant � son profit l�antique formule de Pyrrhon rapport�e par Plutarque : "Dans le doute je suspends mon jugement."

Roughly, it reads:

Quote:

The opinions expressed in the Notebooks' articles are the sole responsibility of their authors. The Ernest Renan Circle, refusing all dogma and believing that none possess the Truth, but that one must look for it, has a duty to publish texts that reflect diverse points of view and sometimes opposed. It is not here that we censor. The only "doctrines" that can boast in our circle are research and knowledge in the tolerance and putting back the permanent question of admitted opinions, taking to one's benefit the old adage of Pyrrho reported by Plutarch: "In doubt, I suspend my judgement."

Wise words to begin with, eh? I don't think it calls for a whitewash of the scholarship there, though perhaps the English articles linked are lacking.

Joel

12-03-2003, 12:57 PM

OK, I have a habit of being a bit too judgemental. I am not going to set out all the errors in the two English articles, still less read the French ones. But, let me just say that as a professional, albeit still in training, in the field of history, I do not consider that these articles are useful, accurate or true. I also think that there are far too many web sites where the same thing could be said and have become rather fed up with them.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Toto · 12-03-2003, 06:18 PM

Johann - I have read the English sites. I am intrigued by "codecology" but I didn't realize that this was a methodolgy, and I don't see a lot about it on the web. Do you have more information about it?

It does appear that the Library of Celsus in Ephesus was destroyed by Goths, not the Byzantines. A Christian mob in that city destroyed the Temple of Artemis, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, in the 5th century, which act is regarded as the final triumph of Christianity over paganism. That may be where the confusion came from.

Haran · 12-03-2003, 07:21 PM

Perhaps Codicology was what was meant. However, I'm not sure this is "rather new science developed over the past decades" (I rather imagine it's been around a while longer than that). In fact, it seems that what is being referred to in the article is more like Textual Criticism than Codicology (which seems to deal more with the physical aspects of the ancient codex than with the textual and scribal transmission issues mentioned by the "Renan Circle"). And Textual Criticism has been around quite a long time...at least, longer than "over the past decades". Maybe over the past centuries...

I don't see that the links in the OP provide much unbiased, new, or good information. In fact, they seem to contain faulty information as has already been pointed out by others.

Calzaer · 12-03-2003, 08:07 PM

[Edited by moderator]

Calzaer, he has retracted, so take his retraction in good faith. --Celsus

12-04-2003, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
A Christian mob in that city destroyed the Temple of Artemis, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, in the 5th century, which act is regarded as the final triumph of Christianity over paganism. That may be where the confusion came from.

Actually, Toto, I think you'll find that the Goths did for the Artemesian too, although I can't pin this down right now. Let's see what we can find off the web.

B

12-03-2003, 05:54 AM	#1
Johann_Kaspar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: France Posts: 1,831	French Research For those who can read French, here is a link to a French association: http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernest-renan/ And even two texts in English: New methodology: http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...%20english.htm Celse: http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...lsenglish2.htm I am highly recommanding the texts by Gys Devic.

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12-03-2003, 06:02 AM	#2
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	Hi, Looks like the usual internet scribbler rubbish to me. The internet is full of scribblers like this who seem to think they know better than a vast number of professional historians. You really would be better off reading some books for a change rather than sub-undergraduate attempts at revisionist history. His mistakes are too numerous to mention but one can be easily dealt with - he says the Library of Celsus was destroyed by the (Christian) Byzantines. False, the library was destroyed by (pagan) Goths when they sacked Ephesus: From About.com: "The interior of the library was burned during a Goth invasion in 262 AD, and in the 10th century, an earthquake brought down the facade. The building we see today was carefully restored by the Austrian Archaeological Institute." On the subject of Constantine read The Early Church by Henry Chadwick - recommended by all and sundry. After some proper reading you'll be able to recognise the more valuble stuff on the net. This site is not it. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

12-03-2003, 12:57 PM	#6
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	OK, I have a habit of being a bit too judgemental. I am not going to set out all the errors in the two English articles, still less read the French ones. But, let me just say that as a professional, albeit still in training, in the field of history, I do not consider that these articles are useful, accurate or true. I also think that there are far too many web sites where the same thing could be said and have become rather fed up with them. Yours Bede Bede's Library - faith and reason

12-03-2003, 06:18 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Johann - I have read the English sites. I am intrigued by "codecology" but I didn't realize that this was a methodolgy, and I don't see a lot about it on the web. Do you have more information about it? It does appear that the Library of Celsus in Ephesus was destroyed by Goths, not the Byzantines. A Christian mob in that city destroyed the Temple of Artemis, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, in the 5th century, which act is regarded as the final triumph of Christianity over paganism. That may be where the confusion came from.

12-03-2003, 07:21 PM	#8
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Perhaps Codicology was what was meant. However, I'm not sure this is "rather new science developed over the past decades" (I rather imagine it's been around a while longer than that). In fact, it seems that what is being referred to in the article is more like Textual Criticism than Codicology (which seems to deal more with the physical aspects of the ancient codex than with the textual and scribal transmission issues mentioned by the "Renan Circle"). And Textual Criticism has been around quite a long time...at least, longer than "over the past decades". Maybe over the past centuries... I don't see that the links in the OP provide much unbiased, new, or good information. In fact, they seem to contain faulty information as has already been pointed out by others.

12-03-2003, 08:07 PM	#9
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	[Edited by moderator] Calzaer, he has retracted, so take his retraction in good faith. --Celsus

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