Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 07-07-2005, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Then wouldn't only credulous people become Christians? How can discerning people accept the "core fundamentals" of a philosophy which is supposed to govern every aspect of one's life without understanding what they believe?

I don't think that follows from what I said.

I was saying that people can become Christians on the basis of a very limited understanding of the faith.

I don't see why that implies that people can only become Christians on the basis of such a limited understanding.

Andrew Criddle

John Kesler · 07-07-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

andrewcriddle:
I was saying that people can become Christians on the basis of a very limited understanding of the faith.

I don't see why that implies that people can only become Christians on the basis of such a limited understanding.

Well of course people can become Christians after they spend years in serious study of the Bible, archaeology, ANE customs, etc., but if God really wants everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), then why is the Bible written such that those willing to believe "on the basis of a very limited understanding of the faith" get saved, while more discriminating readers risk dying in a "lost" condition as they try to figure out what the Bible "really" means?

Joan of Bark · 07-07-2005, 03:38 PM

Most interpreters of the Bible believe that their interpretation is obviously the correct one, and if you can't see that, you clearly haven't read it.

A minority of liberal Christians will concede that the Bible is actually only the work of fallible human beings, and can be interpreted in many ways, but like andrewcriddle points out, the basics are the same ... (a point of view I would still disagree with).

NOGO · 07-07-2005, 06:09 PM

What I like to point out is that Christianity started in disagreement.
Paul talks about others teaching a different Jesus than his.
He also criticises Peter over food restrictions.

As time went on there were more and more differences between Christians until someone bullied everyone into a mold.

A thousand years of forced unity followed.

And then division ... division and more division.

This is not a story which started with a clear message from one person.

This story started with the interpretation of scriptures.

orac · 07-07-2005, 08:04 PM

They disagree because it's a bunch of nonsense made up by illiterate shepherds thousands of years ago, with a bunch of even more contradictory nonsense appended later on.

After that, large numbers of christians tend to go looking for biblical support for their existing prejudices (instead of wondering for a moment or two what god's own opinion actually is) so that they can use the bible quotes to persuade their fellow sheep, and that's got to lead to an argument or two.

If any christians doubt me, I'ld like to hear their explanation for why muslims don't all agree on the actual meaning of the entire Koran that doesn't include a reference to the possibility of it not being the word of god.

gee · 07-08-2005, 11:43 AM

"-- Why do the churchES of Christ disagree on what the bible says?"

Just an observation...

I'm a Christian. I did a little post on the "existence (sp?)of God forums" asking a question about atheism. (I wanted to open up some dialog - it's still there "atheism 101.....a Christian question for atheists").

I ended up only making two posts on it; the rest of the posts show variances on what atheism is (I thought I simplified the question, especially because I used the definition of "God" as the Judeo-Christian God)

There are more than a few posts among the agnostic/atheist crowd bickering back and forth over definitions. Many posts show differences in atheistic ideology. Many posters; I think, are more agnostic than Atheist.

While this is a small survey, it shows variances of views even of this small forum.

While Christians have many many sects (won't deny that); many atheists seem to have their own ideas about atheism.

This is not a criticism, just an observation. I really think that Christians and atheists are in the same boat here. Thinking people have differing opinions.

gee

gee · 07-08-2005, 11:45 AM

Orac;

"large numbers of christians tend to go looking for biblical support for their existing prejudices (instead of wondering for a moment or two what god's own opinion actually is)"

Spot on here!

gee

Boomeister · 07-08-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gee

"-- Why do the churchES of Christ disagree on what the bible says?"

Just an observation...

I'm a Christian. I did a little post on the "existence (sp?)of God forums" asking a question about atheism. (I wanted to open up some dialog - it's still there "atheism 101.....a Christian question for atheists").

I ended up only making two posts on it; the rest of the posts show variances on what atheism is (I thought I simplified the question, especially because I used the definition of "God" as the Judeo-Christian God)

There are more than a few posts among the agnostic/atheist crowd bickering back and forth over definitions. Many posts show differences in atheistic ideology. Many posters; I think, are more agnostic than Atheist.

While this is a small survey, it shows variances of views even of this small forum.

While Christians have many many sects (won't deny that); many atheists seem to have their own ideas about atheism.

This is not a criticism, just an observation. I really think that Christians and atheists are in the same boat here. Thinking people have differing opinions.

gee

The difference is that many Christians think they are guided by the Holy Spirit and know "The TRUTH." According to them, the fate of their "souls" are dependent on this.
Atheists, vegetarians, dog-lovers, any group will have varying views on things. That's what makes us thinking individuals. There's nothing wrong with disagreement. But if you think you have the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and that you are guided by God, then opinion or philosophical differences about religion should be the same, not different. Unless they want to open the door to "many paths to God," which many do not want to do so.

Boomeister

Dr_Paine · 07-09-2005, 12:01 AM

The "Bible" is an eclectic hodgepodge of writings. Its extreme ambiguities and contradictions lead to multiple interpretations. That's the thing about the Bible: There's something for everyone. :Cheeky:

If the Bible were more straightforward it would lose the mystical element that so attracts the credulous. Then, it would have to be judged on its face, and apologists would lose the luxury of equivocation.

Wallener · 07-09-2005, 12:05 AM

I don't think this has anything to do with "Christians" or "Bible": get more than three people together and they can't decide where to have lunch, nevermind trying to get them to agree on metaphysical conundrums.

Disagreement is part and parcel of our nature.

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07-07-2005, 03:38 PM	#13
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Most interpreters of the Bible believe that their interpretation is obviously the correct one, and if you can't see that, you clearly haven't read it. A minority of liberal Christians will concede that the Bible is actually only the work of fallible human beings, and can be interpreted in many ways, but like andrewcriddle points out, the basics are the same ... (a point of view I would still disagree with).

07-07-2005, 06:09 PM	#14
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	What I like to point out is that Christianity started in disagreement. Paul talks about others teaching a different Jesus than his. He also criticises Peter over food restrictions. As time went on there were more and more differences between Christians until someone bullied everyone into a mold. A thousand years of forced unity followed. And then division ... division and more division. This is not a story which started with a clear message from one person. This story started with the interpretation of scriptures.

07-07-2005, 08:04 PM	#15
orac Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,082	They disagree because it's a bunch of nonsense made up by illiterate shepherds thousands of years ago, with a bunch of even more contradictory nonsense appended later on. After that, large numbers of christians tend to go looking for biblical support for their existing prejudices (instead of wondering for a moment or two what god's own opinion actually is) so that they can use the bible quotes to persuade their fellow sheep, and that's got to lead to an argument or two. If any christians doubt me, I'ld like to hear their explanation for why muslims don't all agree on the actual meaning of the entire Koran that doesn't include a reference to the possibility of it not being the word of god.

07-08-2005, 11:43 AM	#16
gee Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bahrain Posts: 421	"-- Why do the churchES of Christ disagree on what the bible says?" Just an observation... I'm a Christian. I did a little post on the "existence (sp?)of God forums" asking a question about atheism. (I wanted to open up some dialog - it's still there "atheism 101.....a Christian question for atheists"). I ended up only making two posts on it; the rest of the posts show variances on what atheism is (I thought I simplified the question, especially because I used the definition of "God" as the Judeo-Christian God) There are more than a few posts among the agnostic/atheist crowd bickering back and forth over definitions. Many posts show differences in atheistic ideology. Many posters; I think, are more agnostic than Atheist. While this is a small survey, it shows variances of views even of this small forum. While Christians have many many sects (won't deny that); many atheists seem to have their own ideas about atheism. This is not a criticism, just an observation. I really think that Christians and atheists are in the same boat here. Thinking people have differing opinions. gee

07-08-2005, 11:45 AM	#17
gee Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bahrain Posts: 421	Orac; "large numbers of christians tend to go looking for biblical support for their existing prejudices (instead of wondering for a moment or two what god's own opinion actually is)" Spot on here! gee

07-09-2005, 12:01 AM	#19
Dr_Paine Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 533	The "Bible" is an eclectic hodgepodge of writings. Its extreme ambiguities and contradictions lead to multiple interpretations. That's the thing about the Bible: There's something for everyone. :Cheeky: If the Bible were more straightforward it would lose the mystical element that so attracts the credulous. Then, it would have to be judged on its face, and apologists would lose the luxury of equivocation.

07-09-2005, 12:05 AM	#20
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	I don't think this has anything to do with "Christians" or "Bible": get more than three people together and they can't decide where to have lunch, nevermind trying to get them to agree on metaphysical conundrums. Disagreement is part and parcel of our nature.

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