GakuseiDon

Doherty writes in his book:

"The lowest level of the spirit realm was the air, or "firmament" between the earth and the moon. This was the domain of the demon spirits - in Jewish parlance, of Satan and his even angels - and it was regarded as closely connected to the earthly sphere. The demonic spiritual powers belonged to the realm of the flesh and were thought of as in some waay corporeal, though they possessed 'heavenly' versions of earthly bodies.

Thus it was wholly conceivable for Paul's Christ in that spiritual world to descend into the realm of the deomon spirits."

Doherty then goes on to examine similar views expressed by Plutarch.

In the 21st Century, we are used to the ideas of parallel dimensions, co-existing but separate. These dimensions exist side-by-side, with no physical connection between them, e.g. you couldn't physically travel from one to another. In the "Buffy" TV series, for example, one of the characters discussed a dimension that consisted solely of prawns. But you couldn't walk there or fly there.

This is in contrast to the cosmological view of those in ancient times. A diagram on the following webpage shows the ancient cosmology:
http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/sylla...mmoncosmos.htm

In this cosmology, the universe was made up of the earth, the firmament and the heavens. A two-tiered universe was made up of those things that existed above the firmament (the supra-lunar realm) and those that lay below the firmanent (the sub-lunar realm)

The Supra-lunar realm

Views differed on what lay beyond the firmanent. The Hellenised Jews believed in a number of heavens, of a progressively higher spiritual quality, with the highest one being the domain of God. Each heaven had its own forms and purposes. The Ascension of Isaiah refers to seven heavens, and this appears to have been a dominant view, though some gnostics believed in ten or more heavens. Paul's reference to a "third heaven" showed that he held similar views.

The Greeks of the day also had a variety of beliefs about what lay beyond the firmanent. The ancient view was that there were seven spheres (named after the planets). Others believed that it consisted of a "Heaven of Fire". (The four main elements making up the universe were earth, water, air and fire. The nature of earth was to settle towards the centre. Water gathered on the earth, and air sat above that. Finally, fire's natural movement was to be above the air, thus they believed that the heavens above the firmanent consisted of fire).

Plutarch had a fairly sophisticated view on the myths regarding the gods. He believed that some stories were those inspired by the battles between the daemons (referred to below), while others had an allegorical meaning along middle-Platonist ideas about idealised forms (like those involving Osiris): http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...Osiris*/D.html

"To put the matter briefly, it is not right to believe that water or the sun or the earth or the sky is Osiris or Isis; or again that fire or drought or the sea is Typhon, but simply if we attribute to Typhon whatever there is in these that is immoderate and disordered by reason of excesses or defects; and if we revere and honour what is orderly and good and beneficial as the work of Isis and as the image and reflection and reason of Osiris, we shall not be wrong."

The Sub-lunar realm

Though Jews and pagans had various views about what existed beyond the firmanent, they had very similar views about what existed below the firmanent. At the base was the earth, and in between, there existed the "sub-lunar realm". If you look at the diagram, you can see that the sub-lunar realm was literally the area between the earth and the moon.

You'll note that this is in conflict with Doherty's view of the "sub-lunar realm". It wasn't "closely connected to the earthly sphere" as Doherty states, but it was LITERALLY part of the earthly sphere. It wasn't a separate universe as per Buffy's "dimension of prawns", but something that people could view merely by looking up.

The sub-lunar realm consisted of spirits, who possessed a nature that consisted of the earthly and the heavenly. For Paul and others, these spirits were devils. When Paul describes Satan as "prince of the air", he was speaking literally. When they were cast out from heaven (beyond the firmanent), they settled in the "sub-lunar realm", the air above the earth.

From here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/m/midplato.htm
"Ocellus understood the cosmos as divided in two parts, the supra-lunar and the sub-lunar, the gods existing in the former and daemons and humans in the latter. It is only in the sub-lunar regions, he argued, that generation and decay occurs, for it is in this region that "nonessential" beings undergo alteration according to nature."

For pagans like Plutarch, they were "daemons", some who were bad and some whom were the remnants of heroes. From here: http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/wo...roduction.html
"And this sort of Genii are those who, as our author imagines, presided over oracles; spirits which have so much of their terrestrial principles remaining in them as to be subject to passions and inclinations; usually beneficent, sometimes malevolent to mankind, according as they refine themselves, or gather dross, and are declining into mortal bodies. The cessation, or rather the decrease of oracles (for some of them were still remaining in Plutarch’s time), he attributes either to the death of those dæmons, as appears by the story of the Egyptian Thamus, who was commanded to declare that the great god Pan was dead, or to their forsaking of those places where they formerly gave out their oracles, from whence they were driven by stronger Genii into banishment for a certain revolution of ages. Of this last nature were the war of the giants against the gods, the dispossession of Saturn by Jupiter, the banishment of Apollo from heaven, the fall of Vulcan, and many others; all which, according to our author, were the battles of these Genii or dæmons amongst themselves."

I'll state again: these demons and daemons did not exist in a separate "sub-lunar" dimension separate from our own. They existed literally in the area between the earth and the orbit of the moon. They had a "spirit" or "air" body, so they had a kind of corporeality. But there was nowhere for someone to be crucified or buried in a sub-lunar realm, since this would have to happen in the air.

Let's look at the Ascension of Isaiah. As Christ descends, he takes on the form of the angels in each heaven. Because of this, they don't recognise him:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ascension.html

26. And I saw when He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the second heaven, and they saw Him and they did not praise Him; for His form was like unto their form.

27. And again I saw when He descended into the first heaven, and there also He gave the password to those who kept the gate, and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels who were on the left of that throne, and they neither praised nor lauded Him; for His form was like unto their form.

28. But as for me no one asked me on account of the angel who conducted me.

Next, Christ descends below the first heaven, down through the firmanent and into the air where Satan lived.

29. And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles.

30. And I saw when He descended and made Himself like unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.

31. And He gave no password; for one was plundering and doing violence to another.

Finally, Christ descended into Mary. But notice that he doesn't need to pass through another layer to get there:

AFTER this I saw, and the angel who spoke with me, who conducted me, said unto me: "Understand, Isaiah son of Amoz; for for this purpose have I been sent from God."

2. And I indeed saw a woman of the family of David the prophet, named Mary, and Virgin, and she was espoused to a man named Joseph, a carpenter, and he also was of the seed and family of the righteous David of Bethlehem Judah.

This view of ancient cosmology answers a few questions IMO. Keeping in mind that the heavens were made up of incorruptible and eternal matter:
1. Paul's view that Christ was raised as a "spirit body" makes sense in this context. I now suspect that Paul had in mind a physical resurrection for Christ, whereas previously I had thought that he may have only had a spiritual resurrection in mind.
2. When Jesus ascended, how far did he have to go? I think the answer is that they expected that Jesus physically travelled upwards, up through the air and through the firmanent into heaven.
3. Paul's view that those still alive when Christ returned would have their bodies changed and then meet Christ "in the air" is consistent with the view that the bodies' natural home would in fact be the heavens.

As a final note, we can see similar views in the Christians in the Second Century, placing the demons in the air, but NOT in a separate "Buffyverse" dimension:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...tullian01.html
Every spirit is possessed of wings. This is a common property of both angels and demons. So they are everywhere in a single moment; the whole world is as one place to them; all that is done over the whole extent of it, it is as easy for them to know as to report. Their swiftness of motion is taken for divinity, because their nature is unknown... From dwelling in the air, and their nearness to the stars, and their commerce with the clouds, they have means of knowing the preparatory processes going on in these upper regions, and thus can give promise of the rains which they already feel.

M. Felix's Octavius:

The same man also declared that demons were earthly, wandering, hostile to humanity. What said Plato, who believed that it was a hard thing to find out God? Does not he also, without hesitation, tell of both angels and demons? And in his Symposium also, does not he endeavour to explain the nature of demons? For he will have it to be a substance between mortal and immortal--that is, mediate between body and spirit, compounded by mingling of earthly weight and heavenly lightness.

If anyone has any knowledge of early cosmological beliefs, I'd be interested in their comments. But for now, I'd say that it would be impossible for Christ to have been crucified and buried in a "sub-lunar realm", since it would have had to have been done in the air.

countjulian

Very good.

Toto

It is very difficult for us, after the Enlightenment and the successes of modern science and engineering, to put ourselves into the mental frame of the first century.

I suspect that GDon is in error in assuming that the sublunar realm was just contiguous space above the earth - this is our modern view. For the ancients and thinkers up until the Enlightenment, that realm was of a different substance and a different plane of reality. You might check the references on the fourth page of the thread, What if Christianity never existed? here.

andrewcriddle

An earlier post of mine Middlle Platonism and Heavenly Worlds is possibly relevant here.

Andrew Criddle

GakuseiDon

I think that we are so used to the ideas of parallel dimensions, that we automatically assume that the sub-lunar realm refers to a different plane of reality. But in fact, from what I understand, it referred to the space between earth and the moon, i.e. the air.

If anyone has any information that says differently, I'd be interested to hear it.

The only reference appears to be to Bede's library. Was there a reference in particular I should look at?

GakuseiDon

Thanks Andrew! I've bumped that thread for people's comments.

krosero

Augustine is very late testimony, but his was an ancient's view. He said some things about the contiguousness of these realms when discussing the story of Noah:

But they who contend that these things never happened, but are only figures setting forth other things, in the first place suppose that there could not be a flood so great that the water should rise fifteen cubits above the highest mountains, because it is said that clouds cannot rise above the top of Mount Olympus, because it reaches the sky where there is none of that thicker atmosphere in which winds, clouds, and rains have their origin. They do not reflect that the densest element of all, earth, can exist there; or perhaps they deny that the top of the mountain is earth. Why, then, do these measurers and weighers of the elements contend that earth can be raised to those aerial altitudes, and that water cannot, while they admit that water is lighter, and liker to ascend than earth? (City of God, XV, 27)As I said in another thread athttp://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=140755, I think your phrase, "physical continuity", is very useful here. It leaves room for the idea of differences in form and even essence between something on earth and something in the sky, while accounting for the continuities that the ancients themselves saw in things like mountaintops, birds, and rain. This physical continuity is a different model, as you say, from a view of parallel worlds without connection, or of worlds of wholly different essences.

By the way, I can't seem to pull up the diagram with that link, can you resend it?

As you noted, Doherty lays out the view of demons belonging to the firmament and being in some way corporeal, then he discusses Plutarch. He says that what we know of ancient cosmologies comes from sophisticated philosophers like him, and Sallustius. (This is all on p. 104 of The Jesus Puzzle). He adds that "the minds of 'ordinary men' might see them as more literal. (Some of those average devotees of the cults may also have retained a more traditional way of viewing the myths of the savior gods as belonging to a primordial past on earth)."

If philosophers are all we have to go on, then that's all we've got to go on. But I think it should be kept in mind as much as possible that Paul was not preaching to sophisticated philosophers (though he could have a thing or two to say about their views, if these were relevant to his audience). Commoners, we seem to agree with Doherty, had a less metaphorical interpretation of the stories they were hearing. I think common sense, and common sights (rain, birds, mountains), would have guided them. If they did not think of Paul as speaking metaphysics, and Paul did not tell them to think of Christ as having died and risen in a distant primordial past, or in a recurring timeless cycle of dying and rising, then they viewed the last supper, crucifixion, burial, and rising as taking place in their own age, in the realm of the air, where they could see things with their own eyes every day.

#1 is confusing to me, maybe because I don't know your former view. If we keep in mind that the heavens were incorruptible and eternal, it would logically follow that Paul preached an incorruptible and eternal spirit, not a spirit body -- especially if Christ ascended back to the highest heaven, which presumably was incorporeal.

Are you thinking of a spirit body because of the physical continuity between the realms? If so, let me build on that thought and suggest that Paul thought of Christ as having conquered the realm of sin and corruptibility by traveling there in a body, and thought of him as having to return to the lower realms in a body. Christ would, after all, be met "in the clouds" upon his return, in the passage that you quote, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, where human beings would meet him "in the air."

It would be interesting to ask if there is a pagan myth which tells of anything happening in the air which sounds as corporeal as a meal, crucifixion, or burial -- not to mention a myth with three such things (or for that matter, a myth in which three such things constitute nearly all of the deity's specific doings).

krosero

As I said, Augustine is very late testimony, but here are some relevant passages from City of God.

He has this to say about Marcus Terentius Varro (116 BC – 27 BC):

Here he seems, in some fashion at least, to acknowledge one God; but that he may introduce more, he adds that the world is divided into two parts, heaven and earth, which are again divided each into two parts, heaven into ether and air, earth into water and land, of all which the ether is the highest, the air second, the water third, and the earth the lowest. All these four parts, he says, are full of souls; those which are in the ether and air being immortal, and those which are in the water and on the earth mortal. From the highest part of the heavens to the orbit of the moon there are souls, namely, the stars and planets; and these are not only understood to be gods, but are seen to be such. And between the orbit of the moon and the commencement of the region of clouds and winds there are aerial souls; but these are seen with the mind, not with the eyes, and are called Heroes, and Lares, and Genii. This is the natural theology which is briefly set forth in these anticipatory statements, and which satisfied not Varro only, but many philosophers besides.
(Book VII, chapter 6)

Augustine says that Seneca doubted the natural theology of his time, and imagines these thoughts in Seneca's mind:

Shall I believe that the heavens and the earth are gods, and that some are above the moon and some below it?
(Book VI, Chapter 10)

He refers to the author of 2 Peter 3: 7, which he quotes directly, here:

For he says that the world which then was perished, and not only the earth itself, but also the heavens, by which we understand the air, the place and room of which was occupied by the water. Therefore the whole, or almost the whole, of the gusty atmosphere (which he calls heaven, or rather the heavens, meaning the earth's atmosphere, and not the upper air in which sun, moon, and stars are set) was turned into moisture, and in this way perished together with the earth, whose former appearance had been destroyed by the deluge. "But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
(Book XX, chapter 18)

And he refers to a neo-Platonic work, Porphyry's epistle to Anebo:

In that letter, indeed, he repudiates all demons, whom he maintains to be so foolish as to be attracted by the sacrificial vapors, and therefore residing not in the ether, but in the air beneath the moon, and indeed in the moon itself. [....] he is at a loss to understand how the sun and moon, and other visible celestial bodies,-for bodies he does not doubt that they are,-are considered gods, if the gods are distinguished from the demons by their incorporeality; also, if they are gods, how some are called beneficent and others hurtful, and how they, being corporeal, are numbered with the gods, who are incorporeal.
(Book X, Chapter 11)

EarlDoherty

I have addressed some of the issues raised here, in another thread:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=143542

titled: "Reply to 3 of Carrier's claims against Muller regarding Doherty's thesis"