Arvel Joffi

I appreciate your responses, Squirrel, but how "Christian" are you? Using the Bible as a guide is one thing - you can use Maxim magazine as a guide for living, if you want to - but if you believe it is only a book by men, then how much moral weight does it hold for you? With the view that the Bible is only wise or insightful, I can't see backing up any sort of moral argument with it, as a source of moral or ethical authority, any more than the writings of Plato, or Mark Twain, or Robert Ingersoll. Yet this is precisely what many liberal Christians do; the "because it's in the Bible" sort of arguments. If it's just a morality play, then so what? So are Aesop's fables.

Thoughts?

Oh, and -

That is precisely why I am asking these questions here. I have respected her wishes not to discuss them - haven't even brought it up, actually - and have gone elsewhere.

Brother Daniel

Pyrrho,

I'm guessing that Nice Squirrel is going to try to trump all the biblical references you have quoted with a single reference to Galatians 3:28, which really does appear to be a statement of equality (in race, class, and sex).

(Thomas Cahill claims that this is the earliest explicit statement of equality between the sexes ever written - but I would guess that the idea probably appears earlier from one or another Greek school. Anyone know?)

To ArvelJoffi's OP: When I was in the latter part of my liberal-Christian phase, I might have said something like: The Bible is not in any literal sense the work of God - rather, it is (in some sense) a record of the slow progress of religious thought leading up to early Christianity; that progress has clearly continued since then; and that with the help of modern scholarship one can get some clues about what Jesus was really all about - and Jesus was pretty cool, so this process is likely to be helpful in sparking further religious progress.

I'm not interested in defending anything I might have said in that phase of my life.

Arvel Joffi

Um...no. At least not to me. It's just something that I know she's done (I'm jealous) and that didn't strike me as terribly Christian. But I suppose "Love thy neighbor" can be taken many ways. Especially the hot neighbors!

Actually, I think the whole concept of Heaven is terribly outdated. I think it's time humanity left mythology behind. But that's just me. And possibly a few other boards members. Maybe three or four.

Nice Squirrel

So I am tolerant? Christianity is not static.

I never claimed the Bible to be anything other than a book written by men with their own personal motivations. Also, let me remind you that at the time of the events placed in the New Testament, the thoughts and customs we still that of the Jewish people. The writers of the New Testament lived within the historical framework which included the predjudices of the day. I live in today's world, not in the world of 60 A.D. History and science has taught us more than the writers of the Bible knew then. I firmly believe that accepting and understanding others is a virture. You can quote all the Bible verses you want, it will not shake my believe that equality and inclusion practiced in my church is a Christian act. Christianity to me is NOT a book written and infallible, but an active here and now spritual quest.

The OP is about how a Christian can be a Christian without being a literalist.

Arvel Joffi

I think I find it equivalent to thinking that I understand the underlying or true message of a 16th century sage, when in reality they were written by 18th century authors. At that point, it would be nothing more than a collection of adages that suit my taste.

Of course, that's the sort of arrogance that any Book-touting theist suffers. When a theist states to me that something is The Truth or The Word Of God, it's in reality their assertion, that their analysis (or lack thereof) led them to the conclusion that the writings they are lauding are in agreement with their worldview. I think that's insufferably arrogant.

And off topic. Sorry

Arvel Joffi

Squirrel,

I think Pyrrho's comment was on topic. He complimented you on what he perceives as one of your personal virtues: tolerance. But the Bible, the Christian church, the Gospels - these things from which the Christian church has grown, are, to varying degrees, intolerant. So this goes right along with the OP. How do you reconcile your own views and morals - which I respect and admire - with those of traditional Christianity? And if they differ widely enough, why do you feel the need to call yourself Christian?

Nice Squirrel

Oh my apologies to Pyrho

Depends on who you ask. I try to be "good" with my actions, but many people believe there are reservations in Hell for me. :devil3:

Moral weight: 2kg. ... Maxim, cool. Now I can pick-up strippers on the way home! Seriously, morals are pretty subjective. I try not to see the world as right or wrong, good or evil, but fail because well, I am human and I do judge things based upon belief and experience. (And that's not neccessarily a bad thing.)

Since I believe morality is subjective, I don't see the Bible as a "be all"-"end all" moral document. Unless it is used for spanking my subjective morality into you! :thumbs: To me it is one of several religious and philisophical texts.

:thumbs: Yes, respect is good. I'm sorry if I appear vague, but spirituality is personal to me, however illogical or nonsensical it may appear to be. Apparently, I enjoy the qestions of existence and experience, and the framework of my church works for me or I would have given it up long time ago.

CJD

Naturally! (That, of course, is the problem.) Every man on this board would be lying if they said they didn't want to know the details, too (especially when they're "hot neighbors!"). :love: :love: :love:

It isn't terribly Christian; you're right. But it isn't terribly human of her, either. Sure, we all dream of the Great Threesome, but I fear the negative ramifications outweigh the proximate pleasure. In other words, one doesn't need Scripture to provide the rational for rejecting such behavior.

Say what you will of heaven (the Scriptures don't conceive of it as a wispy, pie-in-the-sky existence, anyway; it's far more earthy than all that). But modesty, respect, justice, etc., are anything but outdated.

anthrosciguy

I view it as a book, nothing special as far as I'm concerned. I also view it as having fewer insights than most books on Zen, or the freeby book on Liao-Fan we picked up a couple years back at a Chinese restaurant. Your view of what I "want" is somewhat flawed since I didn't say anything about that; it's just something you projected onto me.

Nice Squirrel

Hold on a moment.. There WAS a three some!

I suppose I reconcile my views by trying to understand the motivations and experiences of traditional Christianity, while also immersed in modern (non-literal) Christianity. I suppose I call myself Christian because that is the tradition I grew up with and enjoy participating in (although the church I attended as a child is now Fundie). Basically, there are times when I am down right embarrassed by what people will do and say in the name of Christianity and if pressured to do so would not count myself among Christians if the only option was to subscibe to their version of belief. Then I would shout out: "No I am not a Christian." Luckily there are many versions of Christianity out there.