Arvel Joffi

If you're not a Christian literalist or fundamentalist, then how can you take any of the Bible as more than just a parable, work of fiction, collection of myths, etc? I'm puzzled by people who will admit that the Bible has errors and contradictions, but insist that the general message is absolutely from God. Christians that believe in evolution, the equality of women, premarital sex...those are distinctly non-Christian ideas.

In other words, if Chapter X Verse X doesn't "work for you" - it's wrong, it's outdated, it's mistranslated... - then why do any of the other chapters hold up? If someone believes the Bible is flawless, they believe it on faith, blind faith. I can understand that. But if they don't believe it's flawless, yet they have complete faith in a Christian God, but not complete faith in the work that said claims is his, it seems a little contradictory.

I bring this up because of a friend of mine that is Christian, reads the Bible somewhat regularly, believes that Jesus is why she will go to Heaven, yet does not live a Christian lifestyle. I mean, I get the impression that threesomes are frowned upon by Jesus. And she won't talk about religion.

I'm sorry I'm not stating this any clearer.

anthrosciguy

I'm not a Bible scholar, so maybe you could point to the passage where Jesus says something about threesomes.

I do know he said something in there about not praying publically and making a show of your religion, so your friend seems to be on solid ground there.

Pyrrho

I have also always regarded it as rather contradictory to say that the Bible is flawed and not to be trusted, and at the same time, it is claimed to be a guide for life. If it is flawed and not to be trusted, it cannot be a reliable guide to life, and one must use something else to determine what one should do. A fundamentalist or Biblical literalist at least tries to take it all seriously, which is a consistent starting point (though one runs into considerable trouble with the contradictions contained within the Bible—which is, of course, a subject for another thread).

anthrosciguy

I think you can pick up pointers about life from a book which is flawed -- just as you learn, or can learn, a lot from your parents even though they're unlikely to be perfect.

As for the literalists, it is consistent to believe that something is accurate even when it's internally contradictory, but it isn't smart. One could even say they're not using their "God-given" talents -- and isn't that supposed to be a sin?

Nice Squirrel

Accepting the Bible is not infallible isn't rejecting it all. There are a lot of myths, fiction, and parables in it. What I get out of Christianity is not the all-or-nothing way of living on Earth, but rather inspiration of how I chose to live my life spiritually and this does include more than just the written Bible.

All of my "liberal" Christian friends believe that the Bible was written by people with the best intentions and through the writer's point of veiw. (But this is my community. I cannot speak for those who believe errors and that the message is completely from God.) Unraveling these intentions and getting at the crux of what "really" happened over a few beers is a great Friday night. (We might pick on the folly of the lieralists and objectivists and use the term "those Evangelicals" a bit often too. ) Part of the atrraction for me is the mystery and not knowing.

Posh! Your statement is a generalization. Evolution makes 100% sense, many Christians will tell you this, it doesn't contradict anything important in the Bible, not in the way we should live our lives. The Equality of women is a Christian idea. As Christians we should strive to be inclusive not exclusive. As for premarital sex, we are flesh aren't we?

I believe this is where faith steps in. The chapters may not hold up at all. They were written by men, sometimes second or third hand... or years after the events. The key is to look to the implied meaning for inspiration. (And with texts other than the Bible (such as othe gospels, the Koran, the Upanishads, etc.)), a clearer message for how to live is evoked. Yes, it may be all hogwash, but it works for me.

Of course, but we are after all Human. God is not the Bible. The Bible is of man's hand. Doubt is good, questioning is good. To be afraid to doubt is to sink into apologies and to construct implausable theories (such as found in the flood threads) and to apologize for inconsistancies. I beleive true faith requires doubt. (Also remember, some personality types value logical consistancy in thought. I am not of that type, if I were I might be a fundie.)

What is a "Christian" lifestyle? I hope it includes beer, pizza and a bit of eying the ladies! It sounds like she is living the life that she wants to live.

Surprisingly, we were discussing if Jesus was actually married to Mary Magdeline last night and the subject of a threesome came up. Nobody at the bar had any trouble with it. We all deemed it possible and it wouldn't break our faith if Jesus arrived looking for "a good time" when he met Mary M.

Then change the subject to something you BOTH want to talk about. Be respectful of her beliefs and wishes. Religion is a personal issue. Let her have it.

Pyrrho

Really? See:

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

The equality of women a Christian idea, indeed!

Nice Squirrel

Posh! That's just old Jewish Law talking....

Yeah, I was trying to ignore that crap and focus on inclusiveness. Touchee!
:thumbs:

Pyrrho

So, are you saying you regard it as just another book, like any other work of fiction, which might provide interesting ideas for one to consider? Or are you saying that the Bible is somehow special? If it is special, please explain this, as it seems that you want to have it both ways, as if it were the word of God and at the same time just a flawed old book.

Pyrrho

You don't know your Old Testament from your New Testament. ALL of the quotes on women that I provided are from the New Testament.

And, just for fun, this is what Jesus had to say about the Jewish law, as reported in Matthew 5:

And some passages on that "inclusiveness" that you claim is Christian:

Old Testament

Lev.24:16 "He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."

Dt.13:6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."

Ps.58:10 "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

2 Chr.15:13 "Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

New Testament

Matt. 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."

Lk.14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Lk.11:23 "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

2 Cor. 6 "14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

2 Thess.3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

Titus 3 "10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

James 4:4 "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

2 John 1:7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

2 John 1 "10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."


The idea that tolerance is a Christian idea is ludicrous. Your ideas on women and tolerance are not Christian, but contrary to what is Christian. The virtues you possess on these matters you have in spite of your Christianity.

Not surprisingly, historically, Christianity has tended to follow the Bible more than your ideas regarding women and tolerance.

CJD

This is, um, a bit awkward for me, but did you mean that during "the threesomes" she won't talk religion with you? And that she nonetheless talks a lot (or screams?) about Jesus?

But seriously, she may be coming down with a case of anti-nomianism, in which case she might want to actually look at what Jesus is recorded as saying, namely, "Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." That's not so outdated is it?