Adam

LMBarre argues for a First Century date for the gospel underpinnings at #1109 in the 1100+ thread The Myth Jesus Theory of aa5874
but Shesh inexplicably claims in #1112 that LMB's link refutes the theory:
The Passion Narrative deserves its own link, starting with this quote from #1109:

Below find ample proof for HJ according to top scholars. There is nothing to disqualify it as supernatural.
Here I list all the proposed verses for a Passion Narrative that at least 16 of 34 scholars in Peter Kirby's Early Christian Writers rated as authentic in the earliest version:

14:32 [17] And they come to a spot, the name of which [is] Gethsemane, and he saith to his disciples, `Sit ye here till I may pray;'
14:35 [16] And having gone forward a little, he fell upon the earth, and was praying, that, if it be possible the hour may pass from him,

14:37 [15] And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith to Peter, `Simon, thou dost sleep! thou wast not able to watch one hour!

14:43 [24] And immediately -- while he is yet speaking -- cometh near Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude, with swords and sticks, from the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders;

14:44 [21] and he who is delivering him up had given a token to them, saying, `Whomsoever I shall kiss, he it is, lay hold on him, and lead him away safely,'

14:45 [24] and having come, immediately, having gone near him, he saith, `Rabbi, Rabbi,' and kissed him.

14:46 [25] And they laid on him their hands, and kept hold on him;

14:47 [20] and a certain one of those standing by, having drawn the sword, struck the servant of the chief priest, and took off his ear.

14:48 [18] And Jesus answering said to them, `As against a robber ye came out, with swords and sticks, to take me!

14:49 [19] daily I was with you in the temple teaching, and ye did not lay hold on me -- but that the Writings may be fulfilled.'

14:50 [22] And having left him they all fled;

14:51 [17] and a certain young man was following him, having put a linen cloth about [his] naked body, and the young men lay hold on him,

14:52 [17] and he, having left the linen cloth, did flee from them naked.

14:53 [24] And they led away Jesus unto the chief priest, and come together to him do all the chief priests, and the elders, and the scribes;

14:54 [16] and Peter afar off did follow him, to the inside of the hall of the chief priest, and he was sitting with the officers, and warming himself near the fire.

15:1 [19] And immediately, in the morning, the chief priests having made a consultation, with the elders, and scribes, and the whole sanhedrim, having bound Jesus, did lead away, and delivered [him] to Pilate;

15:2 [18] and Pilate questioned him, `Art thou the king of the Jews?' and he answering said to him, `Thou dost say [it].'

15:3 [21] And the chief priests were accusing him of many things, [but he answered nothing.]

15:4 [19] And Pilate again questioned him, saying, `Thou dost not answer anything! lo, how many things they do testify against thee!'

15:5 [20] and Jesus did no more answer anything, so that Pilate wondered.

15:6 [17] And at every feast he was releasing to them one prisoner, whomsoever they were asking;

15:7 [17] and there was [one] named Barabbas, bound with those making insurrection with him, who had in the insurrection committed murder.

15:8 [16] And the multitude having cried out, began to ask for themselves as he was always doing to them,

15:9 [17] and Pilate answered them, saying, `Will ye [that] I shall release to you the king of the Jews?'

15:11 [16] and the chief priests did move the multitude, that he might rather release Barabbas to them.

15:15 [21] and Pilate, wishing to content the multitude, released to them Barabbas, and delivered up Jesus -- having scourged [him] -- that he might be crucified.

15:16 [16] And the soldiers led him away into the hall, which is Praetorium, and call together the whole band,

15:17 [16] and clothe him with purple, and having plaited a crown of thorns, they put [it] on him,

15:19 [17] And they were smiting him on the head with a reed, and were spitting on him, and having bent the knee, were bowing to him,

15:20 [22] and when they [had] mocked him, they took the purple from off him, and clothed him in his own garments, and they led him forth, that they may crucify him.

15:21 [24] And they impress a certain one passing by -- Simon, a Cyrenian, coming from the field, the father of Alexander and Rufus -- that he may bear his cross,

15:22 [24] and they bring him to the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, `Place of a skull;'

15:23 [23] and they were giving him to drink wine mingled with myrrh, and he did not receive.

15:24 [26] And having crucified him, they were dividing his garments, casting a lot upon them, what each may take;

15:26 [18] and the inscription of his accusation was written above -- `The King of the Jews.'

15:27 [23] And with him they crucify two robbers, one on the right hand, and one on his left,

15:29 [20] And those passing by were speaking evil of him, shaking their heads, and saying, `Ah, the thrower down of the sanctuary, and in three days the builder!

15:30 [16] save thyself, and come down from the cross!'

15:32 [20] The Christ! the king of Israel -- let him come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe;' and those crucified with him were reproaching him.

15:34 [19] and at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a great voice, saying, `Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabachthani?' which is, being interpreted, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'

15:35 [17] And certain of those standing by, having heard, said, `Lo, Elijah he doth call;'

15:36 [21] and one having run, and having filled a spunge with vinegar, having put [it] also on a reed, was giving him to drink, saying, `Let alone, let us see if Elijah doth come to take him down.'

15:37 [22] And Jesus having uttered a loud cry, yielded the spirit,

Pre-Markan Passion Narrative

The argument based on Gerd Theissen for its very early date is quite impressive:
The Passion Narrative
For example:
Concerning the story of Barabbas, Theissen comments, "the text speaks quite simply of 'the rebels,' who were taken prisoner during 'the insurrection.' . . . We can only suppose that the text was composed before the next great uprising; after that, the author would have 'historicized' the account by distinguishing the previous 'stasis' from the more recent one. The next unrest with bloody clashes that struck Jerusalem was the apperance of Theudas under Cuspius Fadus (44-45 C.E.; cf. Acts 5:36, Ant. 20.97-98)."

aa5874

Your post is absolutely illogical.

Authenticity is NOT directly related to historicity.

outhouse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas

No custom of releasing prisoners in Jerusalem is recorded in any historical document other than the gospels

and that the choice between two prisoners is a fiction.


This is a Roman version, and what possibilities actually happened are unknown.

Anyone attempting to pull a date from such is doing so from wishful thinking to promote their own version of theology

outhouse

There is plenty of evidence to point towards mythology and fiction, when Roman authors are retelling a Fable formed in Judaism. Specifically for non-Jews in a Roman audience.

We know there is fiction in their attempt to play towards and for the Roman Empire, purposely distancing themselves from Judaism, and events that would place this new movement as a movement against Roman oppression.

Tenorikuma

How on earth does the omniscient narrator know what Jesus is thinking and doing while he's alone at Gethsemane?

Answer: The narrator knows because he made the story up.

The same even holds for the trial. None of the disciples were present at Pilate's questioning, that they should know what was and wasn't said. But the narrator knows. How? Because he invented it.

Chili

It is called satire when they remove the supernatural to bait intelligent rational believers who are overwhelmed with doubt and keep looking at Mark.

Mark is much like my finest crystal that is singing already before I get there because it knows that it will when I do, . . . and is still singing when I leave because it is the best that my money can buy.

Adam

You did not read the OP. Neither of what you complain about are in the scholars' choice verses per Kirby. You are presenting stock arguments from what you have memorized.

I used Kirby for general scholarly consensus. However, your complaint about Jesus in the garden is not applicable to my eyewitness version of the source I presented from John 18 and 19 in Early Aramaic Gospels Post #49

Only a portion of John 18:1 even mentions a garden. And since I argue that this eyewitness is John Mark, the disciple known to the High Priest (John 18:15-16), he would have been able to hear the trial there and before Pilate. He was not one of the twelve apostles who deserted Jesus.

None of what I have said necessarily means that other information later added to the earliest Passion Narrative was wrong, just that it came from someone else besides the first eyewitness. Thus the first eyewitness establishes HJ, but we can we cautious about how much extra we accept. Establishing HJ does not prove the supernatural, but HJ cannot be rejected just because later writers recorded supernatural events. Conversely, supernatural events cannot be disproven just because it was a later writer who knew about or had heard about something extraordinary. After years pass, only the more remarkable events will be called to mind or be of interest to an audience.

Toto

Let me repeat: the mere fact that a few verses of the gospels do not contain supernatural elements is not enough to make them a true historical record.

Agree? if not, please explain.

aa5874

Again, your position is absolutely illogical. You first claimed the passages were authentic which has nothing whatsoever to do with historical accuracy.

Now you are are presuming that the story is an historical account because it is not supernatural.

How illogical can you be?? Are you NOT aware that all of Plutarch's "Romulus" is NOT Supernatural.

It is wholly absurd to suggest that ONLY stories about the Supernatural are fictional.

Adam

To Toto:
Gerd Theissen as quoted in Kirby would argue that Mark 15:7 means that this pre-Markan Passion Narrative was written before 44 CE. This looks a lot more like history than fiction. (Not that our historical novels tending to be centuires in the past means that a similar "romance" in Jesus's time would not have used an event just a decade prior.)

"the text speaks quite simply of 'the rebels,' who were taken prisoner during 'the insurrection.' . . . We can only suppose that the text was composed before the next great uprising; after that, the author would have 'historicized' the account by distinguishing the previous 'stasis' from the more recent one. The next unrest with bloody clashes that struck Jerusalem was the appearance of Theudas under Cuspius Fadus (44-45 C.E.; cf. Acts 5:36, Ant. 20.97-98)." [apparently from Theissen between pages 180 and 186, The Gospels in Context (or via: amazon.co.uk).]