Sheshonq

No, it's a fact. In the original text, the word refers to people of the same ethnic group, not to a political organization. In 1611, that still made sense in the KJV.

But since 1611, the concept of "nation" changed. As a political entity it did not exist prior to the Enlightenment and the Renaissance (and slightly afterwards, during the nationalistic period in Europe of the 1800s) - at that point it gained the new mean of "political unit with geographic boundaries".

Not really, since (a) it contains several inaccuracies and (b) it doesn't refute my statement. Read it again:

In the KJV text, the word "nation" does not mean "political entity in a geographic area, defined by borders, a flag and an embassy." It means "distinctive population".

By that definition, Israel was a nation before, during and after the so-called Babylonian Exile. The modern country of Israel has nothing to do with the "nation of Israel", since most members of that nation don't live inside the country of the same name.

Sheshonq

Yes. Armenia. Macedonia. Both existed as ancient states, and are now countries. I could probably name others.

This is what happens when you get your information from fundamentalist booklets and tracts, instead of actual history books.

Sheshonq

Never studied Jewish history, I see.

Also incorrect.

Johnny Skeptic

No it isn't. Genesis 17:8 says that God would give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. According to you, none of that has ever happened, and yet you are arguing against yourself by claiming that it has happened.

The predictions that the Jews would be scattered were not predictions at all. They were made AFTER THE FACT, meaning that those supposed predictions were made after the Jews had already been kicked out of Canaan.

If prophecy is more of a sign to believers rather than unbelievers, how do you believe Old Testament Jews interpreted Genesis 17:8?

If prophecy is more of a sign to believers rather than unbelievers, why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander? As it was, even though Ezekiel claimed that no less than a "king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar), which surely indicates the expectation that the "king of kings" would defeat Tyre, would come "from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people," and would "slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee," and "shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers," and "by reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach," and "With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground," contrary to Ezekiel's expectations, Nebuchadnezzar was unable to defeat Tyre. Then, Ezekiel, or someone else, chose to cover up the fraud by adding the "many nations" part of Ezekiel 26, and the false claim in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

Another cover up occurred regarding Genesis 17:8. Contrary to what the writer of Genesis 17:8 expected, the Jews were kicked out of Canaan. That is when the supposed predictions about the scattering of Jews were written AFTER THE FACT, which obviously were not predictions at all, but observations after the fact that were disguised as prophecies.

It is utter nonsense for Christians to believe that God would tell Abraham that he would give him and all of his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant conditional upon good behavior when he knew that even 4,000 years later, the Jews would not have occupied all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting convenant, thereby giving generations of Jews false hopes, and causing them to wonder what it would take to please God, and causing them to wonder what percentage of Jews acting right it would take to please God, and causing them to wonder why God would punish their babies for their own disobedience.

The Bible has so many lies and deceptions in it that it is a wonder that anyone believes it who has been presented with evidence like the evidence that is available at the IIDB. If all children were presented equally with evidence from both sides, there is no doubt whatsover that the Christian church would be much small than it is today.

Anyway, it is obvious that God does not want people to hear the Gospel message since millions of people died without hearing it because he refused to tell them about it, and with no possible benefits for himself or for anyone else.

arnoldo

At the risk of being accused of "preaching," your are forgetting that God is a God of the living and not the dead. Abraham will be resurected one day and inherit all of the land in much the same way that the nation of Israel "resurected" and came back into existence in 1948.

Johnny Skeptic

But Genesis 17:8 says that God would give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. The partition of Palestine failed on both counts.

The predictions that the Jews would be scattered were not predictions at all. They were made AFTER THE FACT, meaning that those supposed predictions were made after the Jews had already been kicked out of Canaan.

If prophecy is more of a sign to believers rather than unbelievers, how do you believe Old Testament Jews interpreted Genesis 17:8?

If prophecy is more of a sign to believers rather than unbelievers, why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander? As it was, even though Ezekiel claimed that no less than a "king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar), which surely indicates the expectation that the "king of kings" would defeat Tyre, would come "from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people," and would "slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee," and "shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers," and "by reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach," and "With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground," contrary to Ezekiel's expectations, Nebuchadnezzar was unable to defeat Tyre. Then, Ezekiel, or someone else, chose to cover up the fraud by adding the "many nations" part of Ezekiel 26, and the false claim in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

Another cover up occurred regarding Genesis 17:8. Contrary to what the writer of Genesis 17:8 expected, the Jews were kicked out of Canaan. That is when the supposed predictions about the scattering of Jews were written AFTER THE FACT, which obviously were not predictions at all, but observations after the fact that were disguised as prophecies.

It is utter nonsense for Christians to believe that God would tell Abraham that he would give him and all of his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant conditional upon good behavior when he knew that even 4,000 years later, Jews would not have occupied all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting convenant, thereby giving generations of Jews false hopes, and causing them to wonder what it would take to please God, and causing them to wonder what percentage of Jews acting right it would take to please God, and causing them to wonder why God would punish their babies for their own disobedience.

The Bible has so many lies and deceptions in it that it is a wonder that anyone believes it who has been presented with evidence like the evidence that is available at the IIDB. If all children were presented equally with evidence from both sides, there is no doubt whatsover that the Christian church would be much small than it is today.

Even if God can predict the future, so what? If Bill Clinton could predict the future, you certainly would not worship him. You also certainly would not worship him if he indiscriminately injured and killed people and innocent animals with hurricanes like God does.

Anyway, it is obvious that God does not want people to hear the Gospel message since millions of people died without hearing it because he refused to tell them about it, and with no possible benefits for himself or for anyone else.

Sheshonq

Then don't preach.

Prove.

Dogfish

Resorting to re-defining words, huh? Pretty weak.

Dogfish

So you cherry pick the passages you want to be true?

Dogfish

Why not go for the already-proven-gullible? It's a sure thing!