Solo

Actually, the difference is unsubtle, but that is a different point. The original question here was "do Jews believe in original sin" not "do Jews believe in the Catholic doctrine of original sin".

Now, it is my information coming from the half of my pedigree which is Jewish, that God did not revoke the curse which he uttered against the snake, Eve and Adam for the children of their respective species.
Cain and Abel (and presumably certain snakes) remained exiled from Eden, so certain amount of pre-emptive "tainting" of everyone by the sin of the three has taken place, like it or not, deny it or not, and un-Jewish as such an idea may seem.

Jiri

greyline

But where in Genesis does God say that the punishment for A&E's sin was that it would be passed on to their descendants as a tainting of sin?

The outlined punishments were weeds in the field and pain in childbirth - physical things, not inborn heritable nondescript "sin".

Solo

Yeah, yeah, weeds in the field and and pain in childbirth - anything else ?
Was there not a small detail that you overlooked in Gen 4:19 ?

Jiri

greyline

(You mean 3:19) The bit about dying and turning to dust. How does this relate to aquiring inborn heritable sin? "Sin" isn't mentioned.

Solo

Yes that bit !

So let me recap: the snake tempts Eve and she convinces Adam to take a bite of the fruit that God forbade the couple to eat. That is the original sin.
(sin=defiance of God's law)

This peeves God and he expels them from paradise and arranges for them
a so-so earthly existence at the end of which he makes them croak and turn to dust. That is the consequence of the original sin. Are you with me ? any problems ?

But the thing is that A&E have offspring who have not committed the original sin for which A&E were sentenced to die ! Are you still with me ? Take a break if this is too hard.

Yet, God does not restore the offspring to Eden. So, why are they reduced to toil in sweat and to suffer in childbirth ? Why do they die also ? Any ideas ? :wave:

Jiri

greyline

Christians think that. Jews don't (hence the OP). And it wasn't a fair law, since A&E didn't know disobedience was wrong before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


God actually said they'd die on that very day, but he lied. Also, he expelled them from paradise because he was worried they'd also eat from the Tree of Life, not for any other reason.


That's why Christians call it "original sin" instead of just a regular sin, I guess: because it's the original sin from which this alleged inherited sin comes.


Because God lied yet again - or at least, meted out a punishment that went, literally, infinitely far beyond the punishment he originally threatened them with.

RED DAVE

From Solo:
You are putting a xtian spin on this. Once you start with allegory, anything can stand for anything else.

Original sin, involving the essentially corrupt and sinful nature of mankind, which requires the grace of god for its redemption, is not part of the Jewish religion (or Jewish psychology).

Sin and sinfulness in the Jewish belief system, in general, involves concrete acts sin not inhereent sinfulness.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE

From Solo:
Plenty.

As has been pointed out, the punishment doesn't fit the crime so the whole thing is bullshit anyway.

But since we're talking about Jewish theology (and psychology), you still miss the point. Mankind is being made to suffer (weeding and childbirth) for A&E's sin: disgusting but true.

But this does not establish the inherent sinfulness of man's nature.

A person may, if their perverted mind is so inclined, go that way, but the Jewish mind does not. Problems we have, but not that one. The exaggerated sense of guilt seen in the psychology of many Jews ("Oy, the guilt! The guilt!) comes from the personal inability to meet an accepted moral code, not from inherent sinfulness.

We like sex too much to believe in original sin.

RED DAVE

Anat

Solo, A&E's children died because they were prevented from eating the fruit of the Tree of Life. My HS Bible teacher claimed that there was no punishment for the transgression of A&E, but new arrangements had to be made because God decided to prevent physical access to the Tree of Life. Thus there was a necessity to provide for an alternate means for making a living (working hard in the fields) and an alternate means for assuring human continuity (sexual reproduction).

BTW from a comparative mythology outlook, the fate of painful childbirth was supposed to be in contrast with various middle-eastern goddesses that gave birth easily after very short pregnancies - IOW there is emphasis on the difference between human women and goddesses, showing that humans failed to achieve divine status.

Anat

greyline, here are some Jewish interpretations of the story of the garden of Eden. They are diverse and paradoxical, as worthy of Jewish commentaries:

http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~dbh/parshas/bereishit/05/
http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~dbh/parshas/bereishit/02/
http://www.torah.org/linkedlists/tor...m/fu/0162.html

Notice that there are at least two who consider the whole thing as a positive development!