Shameless Hussy

Hi,

I'm new here. :wave:

For reasons that are pretty inexplicable even to me, I have recently become intrigued with the NT story of John The Baptist's death. Does anyone here know:
1) If the original texts give any hint as to the age of Herodias' daughter when this incident occurred (pre-pubescent, marrying age, etc.); and
2) If the word for "dance" used in the texts gives any clue as to what kind of dance it was.

I recently came across a webpage discussing these two text points, but it was written by a belly-dancer and, well, with all due respect to belly-dancers... I'm looking for less of a neopagan/WyldeWomb approach and more of a scholarly approach to these questions. And the other sources I've found seem to make assumptions that just aren't in the story, as it appears in the NT, anyway.

Also, the fact that Josephus and Luke (and John) fail to mention this incident at all, as well as the strangeness of the story, makes me wonder if this wasn't some kind of gnostic allegory that somehow didn't get cut. Any ideas, anyone?

Thanks.

P.S. Hope you haven't already covered this topic. I tried the search function but each time I tried to type a word in the search field I was automatically redirected to another "free-thinker" site. :huh:

Toto

Hi Shameless - welcome to the boards. :wave:

Feel free to give the link to the bellydancer's site.

To search, you have to click on "search this thread" and use the drop down box. I'm not sure what you are doing.

Here is a previous thread on Josephus on John the Baptist which discusses the historical problems in Josephus, but doesn't mention the dance.

2 versions in the gospels:

Matthew 14: 3 Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, 4 for John had been saying to him: "It is not lawful for you to have her." 5 Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered him a prophet.

6 On Herod's birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for them and pleased Herod so much 7that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." 9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John's disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.


* * *


Mark 6
17 For Herod himself had given orders to have John arrested, and he had him bound and put in prison. He did this because of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, whom he had married. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife." 19 So Herodias nursed a grudge against John and wanted to kill him. But she was not able to, 20 because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled[4] ; yet he liked to listen to him.
21 Finally the opportune time came. On his birthday Herod gave a banquet for his high officials and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 When the daughter of Herodias came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests.
23 The king said to the girl, "Ask me for anything you want, and I'll give it to you." And he promised her with an oath, "Whatever you ask I will give you, up to half my kingdom."
24 She went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?"
"The head of John the Baptist," she answered.
25 At once the girl hurried in to the king with the request: "I want you to give me right now the head of John the Baptist on a platter."
26 The king was greatly distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he did not want to refuse her. 27 So he immediately sent an executioner with orders to bring John's head. The man went, beheaded John in the prison, 28 and brought back his head on a platter. He presented it to the girl, and she gave it to her mother.

Josephus gives a different motivation - that Herod feared John would be a threat to him and had him executed at Machaerus. (This does not prevent commentators from trying to harmonize them all) There are some difficulties with this narrative, and Frank Zindler feels that it was interpolated.

The modern romantic notion of Salome, and the dance of the seven veils, are all 19th-20th century romantic/erotic fictions. (See this article for information, although it is fairly credulous about the historicity of the dance.)

From there:

However, the entire story in Mark and Matthew has the air of fiction about it, and there is no clear reason to identify the dancing daughter there with Salome - Salome is just the only name from Josephus that was available.

offa

Today, some scholars accept the view that Salome was about nineteen years old at the time of her dance before Antipas in approximately 29 C.E.[8] However, her actions in the Gospel accounts indicate a significantly younger age, that of a girl of twelve or less.

The above is another example about the Essenes fibbing about their age. Salome became a one year old at her bar mizpeh. She would be at least 19 years old.

Salome did not want John's head on a platter. She wanted him stripped of his position as the #1 cleric of the Samaritans. John was a "chief priest" and he wore a head cap of the sort that would denote his position. Salome wanted that head-dress taken from him.

Jesus wanted John's position but his paternal family descended from kings and not priests. Jesus felt that he quailified because his maternal family descended from priests. St. Mary was John's mother's cousin meaning that her grandfather was John's great-grandfather.

offa

Shameless Hussy

Thanks! I've been looking for a place like this.

Ummm... because you want see what they said about Salome, or because you want to see the belly-dancers? I'll dig out the URL for you. There's also a discussion of whether or not you can be a belly-dancer and a good christian lady. That almost did me in. "But I'm shakin' it... FOR THE LORD!"

Er, I was being dense and using the search link at the top of the page, not the drop-down on the forum "toolbar". D'oh! I'm off to an illustrious start...

Thanks, I skimmed it last night and will do a better read today. I have the relevant text contained in the The Antiquities, as well as the Slavonic addition to The Jewish War, and do realize the controversy re: an insertion in the former and all-out balderdash in the latter. It seems odd to me that such a humdinger of an event, if it did occur, would have escaped Josephus' account. Lord knows he droned on about much lesser things...

It's also odd to me that M&M mentioned it in their gospels, but the author of Luke, who expressly states that he is giving a factual, researched account, omits it. Maybe because it didn't hold up to scrutiny, or maybe because the author of Luke knew some pagan/gnostic/myth hooey when he saw it?

As for the actual story we do find in the NT, it's notable for the omission of any salacious details (but leave it to the dirty minds) or even Salome's name. I realize that we get Salome from Josephus, but here's where I get back to the language - what word was used for "daughter"? Could it have meant something other than direct biological progeny? The belly-dancers noted above claimed that the word "korasion" was used. If Salome was a girl of marriageable age (sexually mature), what word would the author have used? (I, too, find it hard to believe that she was nineteen when this took place - bit old for that day and age to still be unmarried and hanging out with mummy, no?) The belly-dancers also contend that the word used for dance did not imply anything seductive - it was the word used more for, well, like the Snoopy dance in Charlie Brown cartoons. Joyous goofing off. So if you take it that she was a young girl who gave a balls-out balletic display for her step-dad and his guests, that puts a bit of a different spin on Herod's "pleasure". I used to dance for guests (much to my sister's chagrin). Their "delight" wasn't sexual, it was the same "delight" I get from watching my neighbour's kid play Harry Potter. It also puts a different spin on Herodias' manipulation. So, three key words: daughter, dance, and girl.

Of course, all that assumes that the story even happened at all. And if it didn't (and here's where my real interest comes in), why was it included in the NT? What does it signify? What's it telling us? At the risk of sounding like one of those Illuminati fruitcakes, I can't help but notice some interesting parallels between this story and the celtic traditions re: severed heads and water. However, I'm no expert, and that may just be the human tendency to find patterns in puzzles.

Sorry for rambling. One belly-dancing link coming right up.

Shameless Hussy

Belly dancing link:

http://www.gildedserpent.com/article...alomepart3.htm

Shameless Hussy

Why?

And if that is true, why did Salome leave it up to Herodias?

Toto

This is fairly scholarly and not especially prurient. I am not a Greek scholar, but we do have some on the board who might comment on this:

The meaning of korasion is described here: "it appears that a KORASION is under a teenager."

Strong's concordance defines orcheomai as "middle voice from orchos (a row or ring); to dance (from the ranklike or regular motion) : --dance." But I know that the word "dance" can also mean "play" in other languages, so I am not sure what conclusion can be drawn here.

There is an interesting analogy to Jephthah’s daughter, who greated her father on his return from war with dancing, and became a sacrifice because of that. Perhaps Salome's dance is Jephthah's daughter's revenge? (Pretty far fetched.)

Shameless Hussy

No, the belly-dancing site isn't the least bit prurient (IMO), but I always question the "scholarly" objectivity of someone who is, let's face it, pushing an agenda. Which is why I came here.

Thank you for checking the concordance (I haven't one handy). Here's what I found on a quick Google:

"Now, the word for dance was orcheomai, which came from orchos or orchatos, referring to trees in a row, which the row of dancers resembled. The place where they danced was the orchestra, later the location of good seats close to the stage, and where musical accompaniment was placed when necessary. This gave its name to the musicians themselves, which are now known as the orchestra."
http://www.du.edu/~etuttle/classics/hippokl.htm

"We get our word "orchestra" from the first, orcheomai.* This term suggests a uniform, regulated motion caused by "lifting up" the feet, or leaping about.* It is the word John used to describe the performance by Herodias's daughter as a form of "artistic" dancing.* Scholars generally assume that her dance had sexual overtones (Matthew 14:6).* However, the term is also used in the nonsexual context of children responding to the sound of a flute, perhaps in a funeral procession or in a parade (Matthew 11:17; Luke 7:32)."
http://www.aletheiabaptistministries...rchDancing.htm

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says of ORCHEOMAI "Eng., orchestra, probably originally signified to lift up, as of the feet; hence, to leap with regularity of motion." "The performance by the daughter of Herodias is the only clear instance of artistic dancing, a form introduced from Greek customs."
http://www.biblefortoday.org/bennett/where_to.htm

ORCHEOMAI- From "orchos", to dance in rank or regular motion, a row or ring. To put in rapid motion, a line dance, artistic. Matt. 11:7, 14:6; Mark 6:22; Luke 7:32
http://joyconference.com/JOY/articles/dance-bible.htm


"However, there is nothing that I can find exegetically that would suggest that it was a seductive dance. The Greek word for dance used here is orcheomai. Generally this word indicates a joyful dance that is in contrast to mourning (Mt 11:17; Lu 7:32; see also Ec 3:4). It is the word used of David dancing before the Lord at the return of the Ark of the Covenant (2 Sam 6:16, 21; 1 Chr 15:29). It was Herod's birthday. It was time to dance for joy.
The word for "pleased" is aresko, which may imply sexual pleasure in 1 Cor 7:33-34; but the fact that the same word is used in 1 Cor 7:32 of "pleasing the Lord" would seem to rule out the sexual aspect as the only or even a primary understanding of the word.
The word for "girl" -- korasion -- is used in the NT only of Herod's daughter (Mk 6:22, 28; Mt 14:11) and of the 12-year old girl raised by Jesus (Mk 5:41, 42; Mt 9:24, 25). We might surmise by this that the dancing girl was about 12 years of age."
http://www.crossmarks.com/brian/mark6x14.htm

Granted, some of these sources are about as unobjective as the belly-dancing site, but they're interesting for the sake of comparison. That last site continues with some parallel instances in the Bible, including the Jephthah story you mentioned.

Toto

The bellydancers' sites seem fairly objective. They look for Biblical antecedents, and are honest enought to admit that their first impressions were not born out by the evidence.

Elijah pops up again.

From here:

Are these Hebrew Scriptural references enough to construct this narrative?

When I read 1 Kings 21, I do not get the impression that Elijah clashed with King Ahab over his marriage. Elijah condemned the actions of Ahab and Jezebel in falsely accusing Naboth of blasphemy in order to seize his land, while John the B. condemned the marriage of Herod to Herodias. Ahab repented once he was confronted by Elijah, while Herod instead arrested John and had him beheaded - and we do not see him punished for this in the NT.

So I don't see a close literary tie. But all in all it is hard to see Salome's dance as historical. The dancing girl is probably too young to be Salome, and the idea of a king being forced to behead someone on the basis of a performance is improbable. Many of the links confirm that a promise to give one "half one's kingdom" was just middle eastern hyperbole, and no one would have held him to it.

Vorkosigan

Given the close links between the Elijah and Markan narratives, it would not be suprising if there was a link here. But I just don't see it. Marks inverts the ideas where a lesson on faith or Jesus power is available, but there don't seem to be an obvious inversions, and JtB being the object, nothing about Jesus here.

20 Ahab said to Elijah, "So you have found me, my enemy!"
"I have found you," he answered, "because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD . 21 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free. 22 I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to sin.' (NIV)

It would seem Elijah is pissed that Ahab has committed murder, not because of Jezebel. Ahab's beef with Jezebel is that she was a Ba'al worshiper and had slaughtered the prophets of the Lord (1 Kings 16-18).

Vorkosigan