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Old 02-14-2010, 02:25 PM   #21
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But, what you posted about Justin Martyr has very little to do with fraud but are theological in nature. Justin Martyr is claiming that people who do not believe his theology are of the devil.

Justin appears to think that the Devil had some fore-knowledge of the advent of Jesus and therefore caused others to do the very miracles and do the very rituals that the believers now practised before Jesus came to earth.

There is a massive difference between theological arguments and fraud.

Now, once you are aware that it is highly likely that the "TF" was a forgery, it must be realised that the reply from the Emperor to Justin's Apology may not have been written by Justin Martyr.

The body of Justin Martyr's writings show very little or no indication of tampering by interpolators except with the Emperor's reply.

And, it is Justin Martyr's writings that can be used to show that virtually the entire Canon NT as found today was not known or used in the 2nd century. Justin Martyr only seemed aware of a revelation written by John and anonymous writings called MEMOIRS OF THE APOSTLES. He did not mention any Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. He did not write about one single event in Acts of the Apostles even though he mentioned Simon Magus who was featured in Acts. Justin MARTYR wrote nothing about any bishops of Rome. He wrote nothing about any Canon with 4 Gospels and Epistles to the Churches.

Justin Martyr wrote nothing about Saul/Paul or any Epistle to a Church or any person even though he mentioned Marcion.

Justin Martyr is a hostile witness to the History of the Church by the writer called Eusebius.

And Eusebius scarcely used any information from Justin Martyr, he surely could not find any history of the Church in Justin's writings, but the writer Eusebius introduced us to a fraudster who supposedly lived in the 2nd century that claimed Jesus was over fifty years when he died.

This fraudster is under the name Irenaeus.

Now, compare Justin Martyr to Irenaeus.

Irenaeus knew every Gospel by the name of their supposed authors. He knew Acts of the Apostles. Ireneus knew every Pauline Epistle to the Churches. Irenaeus had information about the first 12 bishops Rome and their names. Irenaeus knew Polycarp who knew an apostle. Irenaeus knew people who knew John the Apostle. Irenaeus had information from Papias. Irenaeus must have been a goldmine for Eusebius, except he did not know Jesus could not be fifty years old if he was 30 years in the 15th year of Tiberius and was crucified under Pilate.

Eusebius would use Irenaeus extensively for the History of the Church.

But, we know the writer using the name Irenaeus was a fraud. He did not even establish the age of Jesus at his supposed death and he claimed that he personally knew people who met characters who did not ever exist.

I cannot find such errors in Justin Marty's writings. He did not mention he knew or met any who personally knew and conversed with fictitious characters such as the fiction characters called apostle Cephas/Peter and John.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
I cannot presently consider Justin Martyr a fraudster.
The following is an extract ....
JUSTIN MARTYR: (c. 100-165):

Saint, Martyr, a foremost
Christian Apologist. A Gentile ex-Pagan of Samaria, turned
Christian, and supposed to have suffered martyrdom in the reign of
Marcus Aurelius, in whose name he forged a very preposterous
rescript.
His principal works, in Greek, are his two Apologies, the
first addressed to the Emperor Antoninus Pius, whose reply he also
forged
; the second to "the sacred Senate" of Rome; his Dialogue
with Trypho the Jew, and his Hortatory Address to the Greeks. He
describes himself and fellow Christian Fathers as "we who formerly
used magical arts." (I Apol. ch. xiv.) The burden of his arguments
is Pagan "analogies" of Christianity, the contents of many of his
chapters being indicated by their captions, as "The Demons Imitate
Christian Doctrine," and "Heathen Analogies to Christian Doctrine,"
in chapters xiv and xv of his First Apology, and elsewhere. His
whole faith in Christ and in Christianity, he declares, is
confirmed by these heathen precedents and analogies: "Be well
assured, then, Trypho, that I am established in the knowledge of
and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is
called the Devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just
as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false
prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of
Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter's) intercourse with Semele, and
that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that
being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended
to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I
not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced
by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? ...

And when he [the
devil] brings forward AEsculapius as the raiser of the dead and
healer of all diseases, may I not say in this matter likewise he
has imitated the prophecies about Christ? ... And when I hear that
Perseus was begotten of a virgin, I understand that the deceiving
serpent counterfeited this also." (Dial, with Trypho, ch. lxix;
ANF. i, 233.)


Father Justin accepts the heathen gods as genuine divine
beings; but says they are only wicked demons who lead men astray;
and he says that these "evil demons, effecting apparitions of
themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys." (I Apol. ch. v,
eh. liv, passim.) The devils "having heard it proclaimed through
the prophets that the Christ was to come, ... they put forward many
to be called the sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they
would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were
said in regard to Christ were more marvelous tales, like the things
which were said by the poets. The devils, accordingly, when they
heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of
Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine"; and
so through many twaddling chapters, repeating the argument with
respect to Bellerophon and his horse Pegasus, of Perseus, of
Hercules, of AEsculapius, etc., as "analogies" prophetic of
baptism, sacraments, the eucharist, resurrection, etc., etc. The
Pagan myths and miracles are true; therefore like fables of the
Christ are worthy of belief: "And when we say also that the Word,
who is the first-born of God, was produced without sexual union,
and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified. and rose
again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from
what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.


... But as we have said above, wicked devils perpetrated these
things. And if we assert that the Word of God was born in a
peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as
said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury
is the angelic word [Logos] of God. ... And if we even affirm that
He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept
of Perseus. And in what we say that he made whole the lame, the
paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very
similar to the deeds said to have been done by AEsculapius." (I
Apol., chs. xxi, xxii; ANF. i, 170; cf. Add. ad Grace. ch. lxix;
Ib. 233.)

Father Justin also retails to the Emperor the old fable of
Simon Magus and his magical miracles at Rome, and attributes it all
to the work of the devils. For
"the evil spirits, not being
satisfied with saying, before Christ's appearance, that those who
were said to be sons of Jupiter were born of him, but after he
appeared, ... and when they learned how He had been foretold by the
prophets, put forward again other men, the Samaritans Simon and
Menander, who did many mighty works by magic; ... and so greatly
astonished the sacred Senate and people of the Romans that he was
considered a god, and honored with a statue; ... which statue was
erected in the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this
inscription in the language of Rome: 'Simoni Deo Sancto -- To Simon
the holy God"

(I Apol. chs. xxvi, lvi; ANF. i, 171, 182; cf. Iren.
Adv. Haer. ch. xxiii; ANF. i, 347-8; Euseb. HE. II, 13.) We have
seen this much embroidered "tradition" myth exploded, and the
statue discovered and deciphered, it being a simple private pious
monument to a Pagan god!

Father Justin in many chapters cites and appeals for Christian
proofs to "The Testimony of the Sibyl," of Homer, of Sophocles, of
Pythagoras, of Plato. (Add. ad Grace. chs. 18-20; ANF. i, 279-280.)

Of the Sibyl, so often quoted: "And you may in part learn the right
religion from the ancient Sibyl, who by some kind of potent
inspiration teaches you, through her oracular predictions, truths
which seem to be much akin to the teachings of the prophets. ... Ye
men of Greece, ... do ye henceforth give heed to the words of the
Sibyl, ... predicting, as she does in a clear and patent manner,
the advent of our Savior Jesus Christ," quoting long verses of
Christian-forged nonsense.
(Ib. chs. 37-38; ANF. i, 288-289.)


-- extracted from Joseph Wheless,
"FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY", 1930
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Old 02-14-2010, 04:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Now, once you are aware that it is highly likely that the "TF" was a forgery, it must be realised that the reply from the Emperor to Justin's Apology may not have been written by Justin Martyr.
Yes, of course, this is an emminent possibility. Hypothetically, the entire output of Justin Martyr (and Irenaeus, etc) may not have been written by Justin Martyr (and Irenaeus, etc) in the "early period" at all.
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Old 02-14-2010, 09:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Now, once you are aware that it is highly likely that the "TF" was a forgery, it must be realised that the reply from the Emperor to Justin's Apology may not have been written by Justin Martyr.
Yes, of course, this is an emminent possibility. Hypothetically, the entire output of Justin Martyr (and Irenaeus, etc) may not have been written by Justin Martyr (and Irenaeus, etc) in the "early period" at all.
Well, after examining certain parts of "Church History" under the name Eusebius I am beginning to recognise what may have come from the Church and Justin's Martyr "First Apology" and "Dialogue with Trypho" do not appear to have come from the Church.

This is a partial list of fraudulent material, wholly or in part, that appear to have come from the Church.

Writings under the name Ignatius, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Eusebius.

This is a partial list of material that appear to have little or no tampering by the Church.

Writings under the name of Justin Martyr, Municius Felix, Theophilus of Antioch Athenagoras of Athens, and Philo of Alexandria.

"Church History" under the name Eusebius and the writings of Justin Martyr are extremely important document in understanding the true history of Jesus believers.
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Old 02-14-2010, 10:53 PM   #24
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At Brading Isle of Wight is a Roman Villa, third century, with a mosaic that has in its four corners the four signs of the evangelists.

This is claimed in the tourist literature to be evidence of xianity.

Why precisely is this site not more commonly discussed as evidence of xianity?

http://www.bradingromanvilla.org.uk/index.php
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Old 02-15-2010, 02:57 PM   #25
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At Brading Isle of Wight is a Roman Villa, third century, with a mosaic that has in its four corners the four signs of the evangelists.
How about a pic[t]?
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