Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-26-2010, 04:02 PM

The Second Church: Popular Christianity A.D. 200-400 (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Ramsay MacMullen

Amazon is letting me browse it quite extensively. There is a long detailed discussion on Dura Europa.

Reviewed here

youngalexander · 01-26-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Reviewed here

The written record, which privileges elite Christianity, can be tested, and if necessary corrected, mainly by archaeology.

Hot damn, who'd a thort it?

the Church of the masses, that in which the simple, the "half-converted," were the majority. This second Church represented about ninety-five percent of Christians. The persistence of pagan rituals in the veneration of the dead, with banquets at cemeteries or in roofed burial areas, is the aspect that most clearly and consistently emerges from this wide-ranging investigation, for most areas of the empire, together with the datum that Mass attendance was overall very low and involved one to eight per cent of the population.

The Church of Continuity!

avi · 01-27-2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto's link

The first, careful treatment within this area is devoted to the archaeological findings of Doura Europos, among which the most important is surely what MacMullen describes as "the only clear and uncontested example" of a house-church (3).(my emphasis)

I know that spin and many other forum members agree with MacMullen. I do not. Next week, upon my return to Ann Arbor for a visit, I will again attempt to view some of Clark Hopkins' notes. His book, The Discovery of Dura_Europos (or via: amazon.co.uk), was an eye-opener for me. Careful is not the word that comes to my mind, in reviewing this archaeological discovery, for which he is given much of the credit, (and blame, by me).

Haphazard comes to mind. Forgery not far behind it. Chaotic documentation, and absolutely zero security for more than a decade of excavations, with zero western trained technicians or scholars on site for half of each year during that decade. How fortuitous to discover, just by accident, a copy of some papyrus, floating about, the Diatessaron, well preserved, dating from the third century....hmmm. Well, it never rains there, right?

And, again, who were those laborers digging, carrying, and manipulating all that dirt? How many impoverished, dispossessed, evicted Palestinians carried dirt for the foreigners, with their fancy clothes, big cars, whisky and cigars? Oh, and what was the Palestians' reimbursement fee? Their medical coverage? Sick leave? Pension? Hmmm. How much money do you suppose it would have taken, to convince one of them to carry a document into Dura Europos? How much money would have been required to have ten of them dig for two months, while the Europeans were home eating Turkey dinner. After digging, here's another bit of geld, to fill the holes up again, awaiting the return of the fat foreigners, who could then direct, once more, the same dispossessed laborers, excavating precisely the same place, where the various religious artifacts had been planted by them a few months/years earlier?

Ah yes, and how many OTHER excavations took place at the same location, a thousand years or more, before the Yale dig? And, yes, is it not very curious how the entire "church" apparatus disappeared, only to be repainted later, in USA, before any proper studies could be performed on the wooden structures themselves????

Sheshbazaar, on this forum, has written the most cogent, most intelligent summary of why this supposed "church" ought to be viewed with just a bit more skepticism, than the conventional true believers would have us employ.

Personally, I believe that most of the excavation was bogus. I do not accept any part of the final discovery as legitimate. My incredulity is based not simply on faith, though that surely plays a role, but also upon comparison of how the Dura Europos excavation was carried out, when matched against conduct on a careful archaeological inquiry...

I doubt that the structure characterized as a "house-church", if it really existed in the city, 1800 years ago, functioned in the same manner as 21st century "Christians" imagine it did. Is there then, no historical antecedent for a Roman garrison town permitting or excluding certain religious practices within the confines of its administration? Was there so little hostility between the "Christians" of that era, and the Jews, that this "church" could be physically proximate to the synagogue, in such an apparently intimate demonstration of brotherly love, shared between the two diametrically opposed faiths, each claiming the other to be guilty of heresy?

What about excavations of other Roman garrison towns, which played a role during the Persian-Roman battles of the third century? Is there any correlation with the findings at Dura Europos? Is it not bizarre that no where else can we find papyrus documents, or church houses, buried under the sand? There were no invading armies? No battles anywhere else, only Dura Europos? Strange.

avi

aa5874 · 01-27-2010, 11:21 PM

But, the word "Christian" ambiguous. It was not necessary at all for there to have been any one called Jesus in order to have people referred to as Christians.

Based on Justin Martyr almost all of Samaria were "Christians" since the days of the Emperor Claudius circa 41-54 CE not because they believed in Jesus but because they believed in a magician and Holy one of God Simon Magus.

It would appear that there were Simon Magus Christians who were worshiped him as a God decades before the Jesus stories were even written.

This is Justin Martyr in "First Apology" LXI

Quote:

....the Samaritans Simon and Menander, who did many mighty works by magic, and deceived many, and still keep them deceived.

For even among yourselves, as we said before, Simon was in the royal city Rome in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and so greatly astonished the sacred senate and people of the Romans, that he was considered a god, and honoured, like the others whom you honour as gods...

And "First Apology" XXVI

Quote:

.... And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations, worship him, and acknowledge him as the first god............. All who take their opinions from [B][I]these men, are,[I][B] as we before said, called Christians...

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

So there were probably thousands upon thousands of Samaritans who were called Christians since about the middle of the 1st century because they believed in the magicians Simon and Menader ,who claimed he would never die, DECADES before the Jesus stories as found canonised.

spin · 01-27-2010, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto's link

The first, careful treatment within this area is devoted to the archaeological findings of Doura Europos, among which the most important is surely what MacMullen describes as "the only clear and uncontested example" of a house-church (3).(my emphasis)

I know that spin and many other forum members agree with MacMullen. I do not. Next week, upon my return to Ann Arbor for a visit, I will again attempt to view some of Clark Hopkins' notes. His book, The Discovery of Dura_Europos, was an eye-opener for me. Careful is not the word that comes to my mind, in reviewing this archaeological discovery, for which he is given much of the credit, (and blame, by me).

Haphazard comes to mind. Forgery not far behind it. Chaotic documentation, and absolutely zero security for more than a decade of excavations, with zero western trained technicians or scholars on site for half of each year during that decade. How fortuitous to discover, just by accident, a copy of some papyrus, floating about, the Diatessaron, well preserved, dating from the third century....hmmm. Well, it never rains there, right?

And, again, who were those laborers digging, carrying, and manipulating all that dirt? How many impoverished, dispossessed, evicted Palestinians carried dirt for the foreigners, with their fancy clothes, big cars, whisky and cigars? Oh, and what was the Palestians' reimbursement fee? Their medical coverage? Sick leave? Pension? Hmmm. How much money do you suppose it would have taken, to convince one of them to carry a document into Dura Europos? How much money would have been required to have ten of them dig for two months, while the Europeans were home eating Turkey dinner. After digging, here's another bit of geld, to fill the holes up again, awaiting the return of the fat foreigners, who could then direct, once more, the same dispossessed laborers, excavating precisely the same place, where the various religious artifacts had been planted by them a few months/years earlier?

Ah yes, and how many OTHER excavations took place at the same location, a thousand years or more, before the Yale dig? And, yes, is it not very curious how the entire "church" apparatus disappeared, only to be repainted later, in USA, before any proper studies could be performed on the wooden structures themselves????

Sheshbazaar, on this forum, has written the most cogent, most intelligent summary of why this supposed "church" ought to be viewed with just a bit more skepticism, than the conventional true believers would have us employ.

Personally, I believe that most of the excavation was bogus. I do not accept any part of the final discovery as legitimate. My incredulity is based not simply on faith, though that surely plays a role, but also upon comparison of how the Dura Europos excavation was carried out, when matched against conduct on a careful archaeological inquiry...

I doubt that the structure characterized as a "house-church", if it really existed in the city, 1800 years ago, functioned in the same manner as 21st century "Christians" imagine it did. Is there then, no historical antecedent for a Roman garrison town permitting or excluding certain religious practices within the confines of its administration? Was there so little hostility between the "Christians" of that era, and the Jews, that this "church" could be physically proximate to the synagogue, in such an apparently intimate demonstration of brotherly love, shared between the two diametrically opposed faiths, each claiming the other to be guilty of heresy?

What about excavations of other Roman garrison towns, which played a role during the Persian-Roman battles of the third century? Is there any correlation with the findings at Dura Europos? Is it not bizarre that no where else can we find papyrus documents, or church houses, buried under the sand? There were no invading armies? No battles anywhere else, only Dura Europos? Strange.

:deadhorse:

:deadhorse:

spin

mountainman · 02-09-2010, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Based on Justin Martyr almost all of Samaria were "Christians" since the days of the Emperor Claudius circa 41-54 CE not because they believed in Jesus but because they believed in a magician and Holy one of God Simon Magus.

It would appear that there were Simon Magus Christians who were worshiped him as a God decades before the Jesus stories were even written.

Nonsense - it has been demonstrated that Justin's evidence was fraudulent. Quite relevant to the fraudulent Dura citation, from Joseph Wheless it is clear that Justin went so far as to cite blatantly false archaeological evidence:

"FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY

Father Justin also retails to the Emperor the old fable of
Simon Magus and his magical miracles at Rome, and attributes it all
to the work of the devils. For
"the evil spirits, not being
satisfied with saying, before Christ's appearance, that those who
were said to be sons of Jupiter were born of him, but after he
appeared, ... and when they learned how He had been foretold by the
prophets, put forward again other men, the Samaritans Simon and
Menander, who did many mighty works by magic; ... and so greatly
astonished the sacred Senate and people of the Romans that he was
considered a god,

and honored with a statue; ... which statue was
erected in the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this
inscription in the language of Rome: 'Simoni Deo Sancto -- To Simon
the holy God"

(I Apol. chs. xxvi, lvi; ANF. i, 171, 182; cf. Iren.
Adv. Haer. ch. xxiii; ANF. i, 347-8; Euseb. HE. II, 13.)
We have seen this much embroidered "tradition" myth exploded, and the
statue discovered and deciphered, it being a simple private pious
monument to a Pagan god!

There was no statue to Simon Magus!
Archaeologists have demonstrated this clearly.

As far as the "house-church" at Dura, shipped back to Yale
in the early 20th century, every man and his dog can see this
was nothing but a ploy to regain some credibility following the
absolute lack of archaeological evidence for christian churches
and/or christian church-houses.

The Christian archaeologists seek to find something - anything!!!

The intrepid Yale Divinity College explorers could not come home
empty handed, so they packed into a crate a wishful fabrication.
and shipped it back to Yale Divinity college as a ploy to gain more
funds for the intrepid Christian explorers of yore.

Helena's archaeological find of the one true cross and the six inch
Roman nails is being reenacted by the Yale Divinity Crew.

Utter third class rubbish.
Fit to be believed by the converted alone.
Jesus rides Spins dead donkey.
Jesus and Dura are both fabrications.

And the tile of this thread is totally misleading.
There are zero none nada "early christian churches".
There are zero none nada "early christian church-houses".

Dura is classified as a "early christian house-church".
Is there anyone here who understands this distinction?
Bottom of the barrel citation.
Clutching at straws.

Why for Christ's sake is the dead donkey of Dura being thrashed around again?
I'll tell you precisely why ---- there is no other archaeological evidence.

Toto · 02-09-2010, 12:56 PM

Justin was mistaken about the statue being that of Simon.

You really have no evidence that the Dura Europa house church is anything other than a valid archaeological find. In the early 20th century, no one thought that there was a need to prove the existence of Christianity before Constantine.

Huon · 02-09-2010, 02:25 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sancus

mountainman · 02-09-2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Justin was mistaken about the statue being that of Simon.

I dont think Justin existed, and for that reason could not have been mistaken. Eusebius, on the other hand existed, and I dont think he was mistaken about the statue but rather simply attempted to fraudulently twist the ancient historical truth under instructions from his warlord boss.

Quote:

You really have no evidence that the Dura Europa house church is anything other than a valid archaeological find.

If we were to make a list of all the archaeological frauds, fabrications and citations which have been fabricated by the popes, the bishops and their minions from the 4th to the 20th century this list would be extremely and nauseously long. On the other hand, if we were to make a list of all the known unambiguous valid and clearly openly irrefutable archaeological citations supporting the existence of "Early Christianity" we would, in the language of mathematicians, be looking down the barrel of an empty set.

The Dura Europa house church belongs at Coney Island.

Quote:

In the early 20th century, no one thought that there was a need to prove the existence of Christianity before Constantine.

Before this time for centuries and centuries the church did not permit people to think for themselves about such fundamental questions. the emperor Julian and others being exceptions rather than the rule.

We are in the 21st century, and the questioning of the basic assumed unexamined postulates of the tradition are being examined with greater and greater technological resources. That the Christian religion and the Islamic religion -- both of which are based on canonised HOLY FLAMING WRITS supported by the swords of military supremacists are plain and simple fabrications -- is the false rock that the mental evolution of humanity is about to crawl out from under.

Toto · 02-09-2010, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...

If we were to make a list of all the archaeological frauds, fabrications and citations which have been fabricated by the popes, the bishops and their minions from the 4th to the 20th century this list would be extremely and nauseously long....

This is still not evidence that Dura Europa was a fabrication.

Please stop repeating your talking points until you actually have something new to say.

01-26-2010, 04:02 PM	#1
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Early Christian Churches The Second Church: Popular Christianity A.D. 200-400 (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Ramsay MacMullen Amazon is letting me browse it quite extensively. There is a long detailed discussion on Dura Europa. Reviewed here

02-09-2010, 02:25 PM	#8
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	The roman god Semo Sancus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sancus

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02-09-2010, 12:56 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Justin was mistaken about the statue being that of Simon. You really have no evidence that the Dura Europa house church is anything other than a valid archaeological find. In the early 20th century, no one thought that there was a need to prove the existence of Christianity before Constantine.

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