Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CircleOfSpirals · 03-08-2006, 08:01 PM

This subject has been touched on by many great thinkers, but i thought i would throw it out here. i'm new to this forum and i'm enjoying the conversations so far-

IF Jesus was a real person, was he misunderstood, and how much so?

I think that Jesus was most likely a real person. aside from historical evidence (which may have been altered) and recent archaeological finds (which may have been hoaxed) i find this conclusion in social recurrance throughout the ages. Also let it be said that it is somewhat irrelevant if he was or was not a real person, the belief in his story/teachings/message makes him more than a human, indeed he has been resurrected and sustained through widespread belief, and is now more powerful than any 'man' could ever be. BUT i'm getting off topic... first a few vital points on the man/myth Jesus:

1) He existed in a time when a religious government was controlling the masses with a corrupt, iron fist. people were persecuted, prosecuted, and executed if they undertook the futile task of denying the popular belief OF THAT TIME.
2) Jesus was a man who did what many would consider to be impossible: he maintained and lived completely in his very own personal value system unlike any before or after him. No matter what measures were taken against (or for) him, he remained steadfast in what he believed, never thinking of revenge or retaliation, or showing any sort of consideration whatsoever of what the costs. he simply lived as he felt right, and let whatever consequences may rise from that happen.
3) Jesus was a revolutionary, though maybe not intentionally. this actually combines points 1 and 2. he was executed out of a fear of losing power by a jewish system of government who saw they may not be able to controll the repercussions of this man's following.

these points hold much in common with our modern time. the only difference is, christianity is the ruling force today. now ask yourselves this: if Jesus were to reappear on earth, would he find himself suffering execution again? i see it happening. as firmly as christians believe that their saviour will come again, if a man called jesus appeared and announced that everything they knew was wrong, and he was here to fix it, they would go ballistic. Nobody would want to consider that the safety and illusion of their current system may come to an end, or change at all, EVEN IF THAT PERSON CLAIMED TO BE JESUS HIMSELF, it's too easy to reason out of. (oh, he's nuts, how dare he use the name of my lord to claim such evil things) Therefore, he would inevitably be executed- AGAIN! as he was meant to, as he would have to in order to make that second trip to earth worth anything. Jesus is nothing without death. his message was in his death. Doesn't this seem a bit frightening? At least when he was martyred the first time, it wasn't by people claiming to be his devout followers!

So, if you can relate to what i just said then it is evident that he was HORRIBLY misunderstood, and his message has been fiendishly corrupted and manipulated over time. but where did it go wrong? what were the main points missed? First of all, the crucifiction was seen as forgiveness, as a cleansing for the lowly worms left on earth. this is the central pilliar of christianity, and i believe it is the very point when everything fell apart. Forgiveness for what? Jesus celebrated life, living every moment unashamed. Jesus would not have wanted to be seen as a Hero, as a higher power. he taught and LIVED (point 2) believing that we were all equal, that everyone had a right to life. His crucifiction was the ultimate example of the unwavering strength in his own beliefs, a display of just how far he would go before giving into the madness. After all attempts to silence him, to change his mind, the powers that be were nothing in comparison to the symbolic sacrifice of his mortal body. as if to say: do what you want with it, that's not what's important. and it wasn't. as i stated above, whether he was real or not is irrelevent, through death he became immortal.

well, i guess thats enough for now

Julian · 03-09-2006, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CircleOfSpirals

This subject has been touched on by many great thinkers, but i thought i would throw it out here. i'm new to this forum and i'm enjoying the conversations so far-

Welcome to II! :wave:

Quote:

IF Jesus was a real person, was he misunderstood, and how much so?

We have absolutely no way of answering that, it would be pure speculation.

Quote:

I think that Jesus was most likely a real person. aside from historical evidence (which may have been altered)

What historical evidence?

Quote:

and recent archaeological finds (which may have been hoaxed)

What achaeological finds?

Quote:

i find this conclusion in social recurrance throughout the ages. Also let it be said that it is somewhat irrelevant if he was or was not a real person, the belief in his story/teachings/message makes him more than a human, indeed he has been resurrected and sustained through widespread belief, and is now more powerful than any 'man' could ever be. BUT i'm getting off topic... first a few vital points on the man/myth Jesus:

That paragraph makes no sense. You seem to be conflating the belief in Jesus with the man Jesus.

Quote:

1) He existed in a time when a religious government was controlling the masses with a corrupt, iron fist. people were persecuted, prosecuted, and executed if they undertook the futile task of denying the popular belief OF THAT TIME.

Er, huh? I believe the opposite to be true. The Romans tended to leave people's beliefs alone provided they met with a few criteria.

Quote:

2) Jesus was a man who did what many would consider to be impossible: he maintained and lived completely in his very own personal value system unlike any before or after him.

What exactly do you believe was original? I can't think of much that wasn't said or done better by somebody else.

Quote:

No matter what measures were taken against (or for) him, he remained steadfast in what he believed, never thinking of revenge or retaliation, or showing any sort of consideration whatsoever of what the costs. he simply lived as he felt right, and let whatever consequences may rise from that happen.

You have no way of knowing that unless you take the gospels as truthful historical accounts, which would be a mistake.

Quote:

3) Jesus was a revolutionary, though maybe not intentionally. this actually combines points 1 and 2. he was executed out of a fear of losing power by a jewish system of government who saw they may not be able to controll the repercussions of this man's following.

Gospel leftovers again. What evidence do you have of this?

Quote:

these points hold much in common with our modern time. the only difference is, christianity is the ruling force today. now ask yourselves this: if Jesus were to reappear on earth, would he find himself suffering execution again? i see it happening. as firmly as christians believe that their saviour will come again, if a man called jesus appeared and announced that everything they knew was wrong, and he was here to fix it, they would go ballistic. Nobody would want to consider that the safety and illusion of their current system may come to an end, or change at all, EVEN IF THAT PERSON CLAIMED TO BE JESUS HIMSELF, it's too easy to reason out of. (oh, he's nuts, how dare he use the name of my lord to claim such evil things) Therefore, he would inevitably be executed- AGAIN! as he was meant to, as he would have to in order to make that second trip to earth worth anything. Jesus is nothing without death. his message was in his death. Doesn't this seem a bit frightening? At least when he was martyred the first time, it wasn't by people claiming to be his devout followers!

We generally don't execute people for being crazy.

Quote:

So, if you can relate to what i just said then it is evident that he was HORRIBLY misunderstood,

So far, your post seems to be suffering that very fate.

Quote:

and his message has been fiendishly corrupted and manipulated over time. but where did it go wrong? what were the main points missed? First of all, the crucifiction was seen as forgiveness, as a cleansing for the lowly worms left on earth.

That is how it is seen now and how it has been seen for a long time. It wasn't how it was universally regarded in the early days of christianity, however.

Quote:

this is the central pilliar of christianity, and i believe it is the very point when everything fell apart. Forgiveness for what? Jesus celebrated life, living every moment unashamed. Jesus would not have wanted to be seen as a Hero, as a higher power. he taught and LIVED (point 2) believing that we were all equal, that everyone had a right to life.

Thanks for explaining to us what Jesus was thinking.

Quote:

His crucifiction was the ultimate example of the unwavering strength in his own beliefs,

Standard admirable behavior in Greek philosophical schools, nothing new here.

Quote:

a display of just how far he would go before giving into the madness. After all attempts to silence him, to change his mind, the powers that be were nothing in comparison to the symbolic sacrifice of his mortal body. as if to say: do what you want with it, that's not what's important. and it wasn't. as i stated above, whether he was real or not is irrelevent, through death he became immortal.

well, i guess thats enough for now

Errr, okay.

Julian

No Robots · 03-09-2006, 08:16 AM

Julian has hit you with the hyper-skeptical outlook that dominates this board.

I happen to agree with you completely, but we are definitely in the minority here. There is no website for people of our bent. You will not have a chance to discuss Jesus here without confronting radical skepticism at every turn. You are welcome to join the battle that some of us are waging here against hyper-skepticism. If you would like to read a book that operates on the lines you do, try this.

Amaleq13 · 03-09-2006, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Julian has hit you with the hyper-skeptical outlook that dominates this board.

It is only "hyper-skeptical" in contrast to views that are overly-credulous in their reliance upon the opinions of a particular philosopher rather than the actual evidence.

Quote:

I happen to agree with you completely, but we are definitely in the minority here.

It is important to note that it is the absence of reliable evidence that determines your relative status. Only those who consider the opinions of Brunner to be evidence are likely to join that group.

No Robots · 03-09-2006, 09:19 AM

Amaleq13 is criticizing me for my well-publicized devotion to Constantin Brunner. If you think me monomaniacal in this regard, I will recommend a number of other writings that share the same essential outlook, including the religious writings of Thomas Jefferson.

Julian · 03-09-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Julian has hit you with the hyper-skeptical outlook that dominates this board.

This is a discussion board, skepticism is the order of the day here. Besides, I would expect anyone to be prepared to defend their views or abandon them based on the strength of the evidence. That is, in my mind, an exact definition of skepticism.

Quote:

I happen to agree with you completely, but we are definitely in the minority here. There is no website for people of our bent. You will not have a chance to discuss Jesus here without confronting radical skepticism at every turn. You are welcome to join the battle that some of us are waging here against hyper-skepticism. If you would like to read a book that operates on the lines you do, try this.

Skepticism is not radical, it cannot be since it is only a quest for the facts backed by evidence. Only the possible answers can be radical and that only if the evidence calls for a radical conclusion thereby normalizing the radical and marginalizing the norm.

I merely asked for evidence.

Brunner is a nutjob who adds nothing but emotion to the discussion. Whether you like his writings or not is irrelevant since he provides neither reason nor evidence for his ramblings.

Julian

No Robots · 03-09-2006, 09:36 AM

I'm sure you now see how things stand here, CircleofSpirals.

Julian · 03-09-2006, 09:48 AM

I am not sure how asking for evidence for a claim is a bad thing, but maybe that's just me....

post tenebras lux · 03-09-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Brunner is a nutjob who adds nothing but emotion to the discussion. Whether you like his writings or not is irrelevant since he provides neither reason nor evidence for his ramblings.

Julian

Dunno if he's a nutjob, having never really heard of him, so I followed No Robot's kind link (his 'homepage' no less) to constantinbrunner.info.

On Christ: OK, that's what I'm here for - so what is the first quote (by CB presumably)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by brunner in Our Christ

On understanding Christ
How are we to understand Christ, how can we envisage him, this man of Truth, stolen by the men of superstition? No one, for two thousand years, has been the subject of so much talk as Christ has—and mostly on the part of people whose minds are as open to Truth as an owl’s eyes are to the light of the sun. Blind as they are, they have even put scales over the eyes of those who can see. And now, at last, the sighted shall see; let them lose, let them forget what they imagined they possessed, and find what they had never sought!

Oh dear. He accuses the people who disagree with him of being wilfully blind, but that he can see: the first for two thousand years who could see, no less.

So, first impressions certainly suggest that he was an obnoxious nutjob.

Luxie

JEST2ASK · 03-09-2006, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CircleOfSpirals

This subject has been touched on by many great thinkers, but i thought i would throw it out here. i'm new to this forum and i'm enjoying the conversations so far-

IF Jesus was a real person, was he misunderstood, and how much so?

I think that Jesus was most likely a real person.

now ask yourselves this: if Jesus were to reappear on earth, would he find himself suffering execution again? i see it happening. as firmly as christians believe that their saviour will come again, if a man called jesus appeared and announced that everything they knew was wrong, and he was here to fix it, they would go ballistic. Nobody would want to consider that the safety and illusion of their current system may come to an end, or change at all, EVEN IF THAT PERSON CLAIMED TO BE JESUS HIMSELF, it's too easy to reason out of. (oh, he's nuts, how dare he use the name of my lord to claim such evil things) Therefore, he would inevitably be executed- AGAIN! as he was meant to, as he would have to in order to make that second trip to earth worth anything.

Jesus is nothing without death. his message was in his death. Doesn't this seem a bit frightening? At least when he was martyred the first time, it wasn't by people claiming to be his devout followers!

First of all, the crucifiction was seen as forgiveness, as a cleansing for the lowly worms left on earth. this is the central pilliar of christianity, and i believe it is the very point when everything fell apart. Forgiveness for what?

to the symbolic sacrifice of his mortal body. as if to say: do what you want with it, that's not what's important. and it wasn't. as i stated above, whether he was real or not is irrelevent, through death he became immortal.
well, i guess thats enough for now

What I gather from everything you posted forgive me if I misunderstand you is that the ideal / principals Jesus stood for is what is of value not his divinity.
He was elevated mistakenly to the level of myth by those who have corrupted that central message to that I can only partially agree.

I do not think it is possible to know what is the authentic core reality of Jesus and his message it is extremly difficult from the vantage point we now have to determine anything to a high degree of certainity it all seems (IMO) to be projection of the observers desires.

03-08-2006, 08:01 PM	#1
CircleOfSpirals New Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 4	Jesus Misunderstood? This subject has been touched on by many great thinkers, but i thought i would throw it out here. i'm new to this forum and i'm enjoying the conversations so far- IF Jesus was a real person, was he misunderstood, and how much so? I think that Jesus was most likely a real person. aside from historical evidence (which may have been altered) and recent archaeological finds (which may have been hoaxed) i find this conclusion in social recurrance throughout the ages. Also let it be said that it is somewhat irrelevant if he was or was not a real person, the belief in his story/teachings/message makes him more than a human, indeed he has been resurrected and sustained through widespread belief, and is now more powerful than any 'man' could ever be. BUT i'm getting off topic... first a few vital points on the man/myth Jesus: 1) He existed in a time when a religious government was controlling the masses with a corrupt, iron fist. people were persecuted, prosecuted, and executed if they undertook the futile task of denying the popular belief OF THAT TIME. 2) Jesus was a man who did what many would consider to be impossible: he maintained and lived completely in his very own personal value system unlike any before or after him. No matter what measures were taken against (or for) him, he remained steadfast in what he believed, never thinking of revenge or retaliation, or showing any sort of consideration whatsoever of what the costs. he simply lived as he felt right, and let whatever consequences may rise from that happen. 3) Jesus was a revolutionary, though maybe not intentionally. this actually combines points 1 and 2. he was executed out of a fear of losing power by a jewish system of government who saw they may not be able to controll the repercussions of this man's following. these points hold much in common with our modern time. the only difference is, christianity is the ruling force today. now ask yourselves this: if Jesus were to reappear on earth, would he find himself suffering execution again? i see it happening. as firmly as christians believe that their saviour will come again, if a man called jesus appeared and announced that everything they knew was wrong, and he was here to fix it, they would go ballistic. Nobody would want to consider that the safety and illusion of their current system may come to an end, or change at all, EVEN IF THAT PERSON CLAIMED TO BE JESUS HIMSELF, it's too easy to reason out of. (oh, he's nuts, how dare he use the name of my lord to claim such evil things) Therefore, he would inevitably be executed- AGAIN! as he was meant to, as he would have to in order to make that second trip to earth worth anything. Jesus is nothing without death. his message was in his death. Doesn't this seem a bit frightening? At least when he was martyred the first time, it wasn't by people claiming to be his devout followers! So, if you can relate to what i just said then it is evident that he was HORRIBLY misunderstood, and his message has been fiendishly corrupted and manipulated over time. but where did it go wrong? what were the main points missed? First of all, the crucifiction was seen as forgiveness, as a cleansing for the lowly worms left on earth. this is the central pilliar of christianity, and i believe it is the very point when everything fell apart. Forgiveness for what? Jesus celebrated life, living every moment unashamed. Jesus would not have wanted to be seen as a Hero, as a higher power. he taught and LIVED (point 2) believing that we were all equal, that everyone had a right to life. His crucifiction was the ultimate example of the unwavering strength in his own beliefs, a display of just how far he would go before giving into the madness. After all attempts to silence him, to change his mind, the powers that be were nothing in comparison to the symbolic sacrifice of his mortal body. as if to say: do what you want with it, that's not what's important. and it wasn't. as i stated above, whether he was real or not is irrelevent, through death he became immortal. well, i guess thats enough for now

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03-09-2006, 08:16 AM	#3
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Julian has hit you with the hyper-skeptical outlook that dominates this board. I happen to agree with you completely, but we are definitely in the minority here. There is no website for people of our bent. You will not have a chance to discuss Jesus here without confronting radical skepticism at every turn. You are welcome to join the battle that some of us are waging here against hyper-skepticism. If you would like to read a book that operates on the lines you do, try this.

03-09-2006, 09:19 AM	#5
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Amaleq13 is criticizing me for my well-publicized devotion to Constantin Brunner. If you think me monomaniacal in this regard, I will recommend a number of other writings that share the same essential outlook, including the religious writings of Thomas Jefferson.

03-09-2006, 09:36 AM	#7
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	I'm sure you now see how things stand here, CircleofSpirals.

03-09-2006, 09:48 AM	#8
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	I am not sure how asking for evidence for a claim is a bad thing, but maybe that's just me....

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