Toto

This is not the Political Discussions forum.

Godwin's Law has been reached.

If this discussion conitnues in this vein, look for this thread in E.

Toto

Johnny Skeptic

Are you saying that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestinians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, that the partition of Palestine would have awarded control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, and would have awarded a grossly unfair amount of land per capita to Palestians such as the Jews got? In addition, are you saying that the Bible did not have anything to with the partition of Palestine.

arnoldo

You obviously twist scriptures for your own purposes much like the Enemy does. Even Satan twisted meaning of Scriptures when he tempted Yeshua in the wilderness. Anyway you totally do not understand the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, the Davidic covenant or the bible for that matter. After God made the promises to Abraham about the land he also told Abraham he would leave the land to go down to Egypt. This prophecy is backed up by historical fact absolutely verifying that Israel is proof of God's existence.

Just because you misunderstand or misinterpret a scripture does not mean that God lies.

Johnny Skeptic

No they haven't. This all started when Abraham wrongfully stole land from the Canaanites.

The partition of Palestine allowed the Jews to control Jerusalem, and an unfairly disproportionate amount of land based upon land per capita, and yet you claim that the Arabs have always stated the wars. A much more equitable solution would have been joint control of Jerusalem, or dividing Jerusalem in half.

The most important war is the unfair and unnecessary war that God wages not only against skeptics, but also against Jews and Christians. Why would God give Jews parts of Palestine and kill them by various means such as parasites and cancer viruses?

Australia has a very small population, and it is very large. Most of the population lives near the ocean. Now what better place could there have been for God to set up a Jewish nation than in the middle of Australia, with no hatred, and not bloodshed?

The only reason that Jews and Arabs have ever had any problems is because God made sure that they were in the same places at the same times. This is analogous to the detestible, unlawful practice of cockfighting. Cocks would not fight unless humans put them in the same places at the same times.

Why do animals injure and kill each other in disputes over food, territory, and mates? Obviously, because God unfairly and unnecessarily puts them in the same places at the same times.

Now are you going to tell us that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Hitler and other parties had persecuted Palestinians instead of Jews, that the U.S. would have approved of the Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem and a grossly disproportionate amount of land based upon the amount of land per person?

arnoldo

You keep bringing up God's character, the topic is Israel is proof of God's existence, which our side has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I suppose all the other nations in the history of earth are innocent and blameless by your ethical standards?
God didn't "cause" any of the negative things in this world. Due to Adam's disobedience sin and death entered the world. You continue to fail to understand that we are living on EARTH and not a paradise where nothing bad happens. Your arguments are absurd.

arnoldo

I agree, however I was simply resPonding to Johny S. question, I just read this notice and I will agree to stay on topic of only discussing that ISRAEL IS PROOF OF GOD'S EXISTENCE.

Johnny Skeptic

No, you twist scriptures. Genesis 17:8 clearly says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. No covenant can start without Jews occupying all of the land of Canaan. Following your same line reasoning, if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, that would be a fulfulled prophecy. There are not any scriptures at all that indicate that the current partial occupation of Palestine will last.

No he didn't. Jesus did not say that, and the anonymous writer certainly did not see Satan tempt Jesus.

Rubbish. Regarding Genesis 15:13-16, the NIV interprets those verses as follows:

"Then the Lord said to him, "Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."

You obviously believe that "four hundred years" refers to when the Jews were help captive in Egypt.

There is no way that the Jews were held captive in Egypt for four hundred years. First of all, neither Egyptian historical records or anyone else's historical records except for the Bible make any mention of the captivity. Second of all, the vast majority of modern archaeologists have not found anything in the Middle East that reasonably confirms captivity or the Exodus. Third of all, if the Ten Plagues occurred, that would have been the end of Egypt as a major power in the Middle East. As history shows, that did not happen. Fourth of all, even if the Jews were held captive in Egypt, the supposed prophecy might have been recorded after the fact just like many other Bible prophecies were recorded, the Tyre prophecy for instance.

If a God exists, there is no doubt that he does not care whether or not people believe that he can predict the future. If he did, he would have provided indisputable proof that he can predict the future thousands of years ago. For instance, he could have predicted when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. That would have provided indisputable evidence that God can predict the future. The God of the Bible's failure to do that proves that he does not exist. His refusal to provide indisputable evidence that he can predict the future could not possibly benefit him or anyone else. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why there are not any indisputable prophecies.

Johnny Skeptic

No they haven't. This all started when Abraham wrongfully stole land from the Canaanites.

The partition of Palestine allowed the Jews to control Jerusalem, and an unfairly disproportionate amount of land based upon land per capita, and yet you claim that the Arabs have always stated the wars. A much more equitable solution would have been joint control of Jerusalem, or dividing Jerusalem in half.

The most important war is the unfair and unnecessary war that God wages not only against skeptics, but also against Jews and Christians. Why would God give Jews parts of Palestine and kill them by various means such as parasites and cancer viruses?

Australia has a very small population, and it is very large. Most of the population lives near the ocean. Now what better place could there have been for God to set up a Jewish nation than in the middle of Australia, with no hatred, and not bloodshed?

The only reason that Jews and Arabs have ever had any problems is because God made sure that they were in the same places at the same times. This is analogous to the detestible, unlawful practice of cockfighting. Cocks would not fight unless humans put them in the same places at the same times.

Why do animals injure and kill each other in disputes over food, territory, and mates? Obviously, because God unfairly and unnecessarily puts them in the same places at the same times.

Now are you going to tell us that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Hitler and other parties had persecuted Palestinians instead of Jews, that the U.S. would have approved of the Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem and a grossly disproportionate amount of land based upon the amount of land per person?

Johnny Skeptic

No I don't. Genesis 17:8 clearly says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. No covenant can start without Jews occupying all of the land of Canaan. Following your same line reasoning, if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, that would be a fulfulled prophecy. There are not any scriptures at all that indicate that the current partial occupation of Palestine will last.

Here is one reasonable hypothetical scenario: Abraham believed that God would give HIM all of the land of Canaan, NOT to Jews who would be alive thousands of years later. If it had been God's plan to give all of Canaan to Jews who lived thousands of years later, there would not have been any need for him to tell Abraham about that. Even more embarrassing for you is that God would never have told Abraham that the land promise was conditional upon good behavior when the good behavior issue would not make any difference at all until THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER when the Jews would finally occupy all of Palestine.

So, when, contrary to what Abraham believed would happen, the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, that is when claims were written that Jews would be scattered when they had already been scattered when those supposed prophecies were written.

Regarding your bogus claim that nations all over the world are interested in what happens in the Middle East, if Jews and Palestinians had been contesting the possession of land in the middle of the Australian desert in central Austrailia in an area with no valuable natural resources, no one would care about that except for Jews, Palestinians, and conservative Christians.

Johnny Skeptic

No, your arguments are absurd, and downright barbaric. In order to enter into loving relationships with people, it is not necessary to seriously injure and kill them, including babies. It is also not necessary to force animals to kill each other and people.

Two things that prevent any decent person from becoming a fundamentalist Christian are that 1) the Bible says that God is merciful, and yet, God endorses unmerficul eternal punishment without parole, and that 2) God refuses to provide some skeptics with evidence that they would accept if they were aware of it.

Regarding mercy, if the God of the Bible exists, if I somehow became the most powerful being in the universe, I would not punish the God of the Bible. I would forgive him, and I would rehabilitate him. Now that is mercy, and yet you and sugarhitman criticize me for being a bad old skeptic. Ghandi said that he forgave his enemies, and that the prayed for them. If only the God of the Bible was more like Ghandi was. First Corinthians 13 says that love is patient and kind, and keeps no record of wrongs. That obviously does not include the God of the Bible.

If anything, unmerciful and unecessary eternal vengeance without parole convicts the avenger, not those who he punishes.

All three Abrahamic religions have some of the same roots, and they are all detestible religions that are threats to human societies. No God ever had any interest in animal and human sacrificies. Old Testament Jews copied animals sacrifices from pagans. New Testament writers pirated Judaism and revised it by means of lies and innocent but inaccurate revelations. Later, some Christians wrote interpolations. Based upon the number of known interpolations, it is reasonble to assume that for every obvious interpolation, there are at least ten more interpolations. Possibly no one has said it better than Elaine Pagels did when she basically said that "The victors rewrote history, 'their way.'" By "the victors," Pagels meant Christians who considered themselves to be orthodox Christians. We can only guess how Constantine and Eusebius falsely manipuated the New Testmant Canon according to their own preferences.