Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-21-2011, 11:32 PM

Where is the evidence of Constantine burning Plato's books?

mountainman · 08-21-2011, 11:35 PM

See Post #1 - the letter of Constantine to everyone after Nicaea.

Toto · 08-21-2011, 11:57 PM

Pete - You started this tread to ask if Constantine burned Plato and Euclid. So far, you have not produced any evidence, or any indication that there might be evidence.

Post #1 mentions the writings of Porphyry, not Plato.

Why are you doing this?

stephan huller · 08-22-2011, 12:02 AM

But both authors begin with the letter 'P.' Doesn't :huh:that count for something?

mountainman · 08-22-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Pete - You started this tread to ask if Constantine burned Plato and Euclid. So far, you have not produced any evidence, or any indication that there might be evidence.

Post #1 mentions the writings of Porphyry, not Plato.

You have only to examine the content of the writings of Porphyry. In the first place he was responsible for the preservation of Plotinus's Enneads, considered to be one of the greatest expositions of Platonic thinking. In the second place Porphyry preserved some of the works of Euclid. Porphyry was undoubtedly one of the greatest intellectuals and Platonists of the 4th century - but his writings were ordered to be destroyed by Constantine.

Iskander · 08-22-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Pete - You started this tread to ask if Constantine burned Plato and Euclid. So far, you have not produced any evidence, or any indication that there might be evidence.

Post #1 mentions the writings of Porphyry, not Plato.

You have only to examine the content of the writings of Porphyry. In the first place he was responsible for the preservation of Plotinus's Enneads, considered to be one of the greatest expositions of Platonic thinking. In the second place Porphyry preserved some of the works of Euclid. Porphyry was undoubtedly one of the greatest intellectuals and Platonists of the 4th century - but his writings were ordered to be destroyed by Constantine.

Quote:

Porphyry was undoubtedly one of the greatest intellectuals and Platonists of the 4th century

Porphyry wrote Adversus Chritianos before the birth of Constantine.

mountainman · 08-22-2011, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Pete - You started this tread to ask if Constantine burned Plato and Euclid. So far, you have not produced any evidence, or any indication that there might be evidence.

Post #1 mentions the writings of Porphyry, not Plato.

You have only to examine the content of the writings of Porphyry. In the first place he was responsible for the preservation of Plotinus's Enneads, considered to be one of the greatest expositions of Platonic thinking. In the second place Porphyry preserved some of the works of Euclid. Porphyry was undoubtedly one of the greatest intellectuals and Platonists of the 4th century - but his writings were ordered to be destroyed by Constantine.

Quote:

Porphyry was undoubtedly one of the greatest intellectuals and Platonists of the 4th century

Porphyry wrote Adversus Chritianos before the birth of Constantine.

For those glued to the Eusebian version of the history of "christian origins" Eusesbius asserts that Porphyry wrote Adversus Christianos, but then again Eusebius asserts that Jesus Christ wrote the "My Dear King Agbar Letter". What did Porphyry actually write, considering the mass of forgeries associated with his name in the 4th century? See the classicists's inventory for the writings of Porphyry, which Constantine (and subsequent Christian emperors) ordered to be burnt.

OVER

Doug Shaver · 08-23-2011, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Therefore how certain can we really be that Constantine's 4th century centralised state monotheist religious organisation was not just corrupt?

I don't have the slightest idea. I have never examined any evidence relevant to the degree of corruption in Constantine's government. I therefore have no opinion on the matter. I also feel no urgency about forming an opinion. The extent, if any, to which his government was corrupt has no bearing on any subject in which I have a strong interest.

Doug Shaver · 08-23-2011, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

For those glued to the Eusebian version of the history of "christian origins" . . . .

What's this "glued" business? Do you not even think it possible for someone with an open mind to disagree with you?

Iskander · 08-23-2011, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Porphyry wrote Adversus Chritianos before the birth of Constantine.

For those glued to the Eusebian version of the history of "christian origins" Eusesbius asserts that Porphyry wrote Adversus Christianos, but then again Eusebius asserts that Jesus Christ wrote the "My Dear King Agbar Letter". What did Porphyry actually write, considering the mass of forgeries associated with his name in the 4th century? See the classicists's inventory for the writings of Porphyry, which Constantine (and subsequent Christian emperors) ordered to be burnt.

OVER

Porphyry was born circa 234 and wrote several books.
Bertrand Russell in The history of Western Philosophy speaks of Porphyry as one of the disciples of Plotinus.
Russell introduces chapter XXX on Plotinus as fpllows:

Quote:

PLOTINUS ( A.D. 204-270), the founder of Neo-Platonism, is the last of the great philosophers of antiquity. His life is almost coextensive with one of the most disastrous periods in Roman history.
Shortly before his birth, the army had become conscious of its power, and had adopted the practice of choosing emperors in return for monetary rewards, and assassinating them afterwards to give occasion for a renewed sale of the Empire. These preoccupations unfitted the soldiers for the defence of the frontier, and permitted vigorous incursions of Germans from the north and Persians from the East. War and pestilence diminished the population of the Empire by about a third, while increased taxation and diminished resources caused financial ruin in even those provinces to which no hostile forces penetrated. The cities, which had been the bearers of culture, were especially hard hit; substantial citizens, in large numbers, fled to escape the tax-collector. It was not till after the death of Plotinus that order was re-established and the Empire temporarily saved by the vigorous measures of Diocletian and Constantine.

Constantine was a political leader who tried to protect the roman people from chaos and he assessed the political rants of Porphyry as a threat to the stability of the government; the perceived need to ban argumentative questions in critical times is a perennial problem for governments everywhere.

Russell explains why Christianity triumphed in Rome:

Quote:

Of all this there is no mention in the works of Plotinus. He turned aside from the spectacle of ruin and misery in the actual world, to contemplate an eternal world of goodness and beauty. In this he was in harmony with all the most serious men of his age. To all of them, Christians and pagans alike, the world of practical affairs seemed to offer no hope, and only the Other World seemed worthy of allegiance. To the Christian, the Other World was the Kingdom of Heaven, to be enjoyed after death; to the Platonist, it was the eternal world of ideas, the real world as opposed to that of illusory appearance. Christian theologians combined these points of view, and embodied much of the philosophy of Plotinus. Dean Inge, in his invaluable book on Plotinus, rightly emphasises what Christianity owes to him. "Platonism," he says, "is part of the vital structure of Christian theology, with which no other philosophy,I venture to say, can work without friction." There is, he says, an "utter impossibility of excising Platonism from Christianity without tearing Christianity to pieces." He points out that Saint Augustine speaks of Plato's system as "the most pure and bright in all philosophy," and of Plotinus as a man in whom "Plato lived again," and who, if he had lived a little later, would have "changed a few words and phrases and become Christian." Saint Thomas Aquinas, according to Dean Inge, "is nearer to Plotinus than to the real Aristotle."

Augustine of Hippo, Constantine, Aquinas, Plato and Plotinus are brothers in spirit
.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-21-2011, 11:32 PM	#41
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Where is the evidence of Constantine burning Plato's books?

08-21-2011, 11:35 PM	#42
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	See Post #1 - the letter of Constantine to everyone after Nicaea.

08-21-2011, 11:57 PM	#43
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Pete - You started this tread to ask if Constantine burned Plato and Euclid. So far, you have not produced any evidence, or any indication that there might be evidence. Post #1 mentions the writings of Porphyry, not Plato. Why are you doing this?

08-22-2011, 12:02 AM	#44
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But both authors begin with the letter 'P.' Doesn't :huh:that count for something?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.