Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 09-07-2010, 08:02 AM

Reading this letter, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with any Christian specific subject matter. The two references to "Jesus Christ" are simply window dressing and don't add to the letter in any way.

This letter is famous for being at odds with Paul's salvation scheme but even when James talks about salvation, it has nothing to do with Jesus, his death, the cross, or his resurrection:

1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you

Of course there are various places in James' epistle where he could have simply quoted Jesus but doesn't.

Could this letter have originated as some sort of pseudegraphic letter written not by the James of Christianity, but intended to be the James who was the namesake of Israel?

Juststeve · 09-07-2010, 08:39 AM

Yes. The author describes himself in the opening verse as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ". Seems pretty Christian to me.

Is his theory of salvation them same as Paul's? No but then neither is that of the author of Matthew. Perhaps by the thread starter’s reasoning Matthew isn't a Christian gospel.

Steve

Toto · 09-07-2010, 09:37 AM

The Epistle of James is generally viewed as Jewish with a few Christian add ons.

Epistle_of_James

Quote:

The Interpreter's Bible calls James "... a Christian revision of a Jewish work." [The Interpreter's Bible Vol XII] p. 21 James' epistle is so Jewish that Adam Clarke[9] cites Talmudic sources for nearly every verse. The Interpreters' Bible posits a preexistent Jewish "Book of Jacob" adapted to a Christian audience; rather than point out Jewish antecedents, it highlights the less numerous Christian accretions.

"In the last decade of the nineteenth century … a French scholar" [L. Massebieau] "and a German scholar," [Friedrich Spitta] "working wholly independently, published almost simultaneously conclusions that were identical. Both maintained that the epistle was originally a purely Jewish writing which has been converted into a Christian work by an editor who merely added 'and of the Lord Jesus Christ' in 1:1 and 'our Lord Jesus Christ' in 2:1. Both writers stressed in support of their theory the extraordinarily difficult grammatical problem offered by the Greek genitives in 2:1 … a problem solved at once by the theory of the interpolation. And they argued further that if this interpolation is accepted, a corresponding interpolation in 1:1 may be inferred; especially since 1:1, as it now reads, contains language unique in the New Testament… Then, since these two occurrences of 'Jesus Christ' are the only explicit Christian terms in the letter, the remainder, they argued, not only represented a use of Jewish tradition, but was Jewish tradition and nothing else.

…
"… a generation later Arnold Meyer … [n]oting that in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew, ‘James’ and ‘Jacob’ are the same word,… saw that if the Christian ‘interpolation’ in 1:1 was recognized as such, the original opening words could be read "Jacob, a servant of God, to the twelve tribes in the dispersion: Greeting.’… And for a letter from Jacob to the ‘twelve tribes’ a well-known biblical precedent was provided by Gen." [Genesis] "49, where Jacob addresses the ‘ancestor’ of each tribe in turn…. Meyer undertook to demonstrate that similar references to the twelve tribes can be detected in James …

"But even if Meyer is correct in his contention that a 'Letter of Jacob' forms the basis of James, it by no means follows that he is equally correct in contending that the former can be recovered by eliminating minimal Christian additions in 1:1; 2:1; 5:12; and 5:14. He seems vastly to have underestimated the contributions of the Christian editor. This appears most vividly in the long section 2:14-26 on the relative value of faith and works. … Not only is the general trend of the argument in 2:14-26 one impossible in Judaism, but the details of its wording show that the argument is directed against a non-Jewish opponent – an opponent who can be identified definitely as Paul… Only one conclusion appears to be possible: 2:14-26 was written not by a Jew, but by a Christian.

show_no_mercy · 09-07-2010, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Yes. The author describes himself in the opening verse as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ". Seems pretty Christian to me.

Quote:

The two references to "Jesus Christ" are simply window dressing and don't add to the letter in any way.

:huh:

Juststeve · 09-07-2010, 10:52 AM

show no mercy:

In the Title of your thread you asked if the Epistle Of James was a Christian letter. I simply said that the author identifies himself as a Christian in the opening sentence of the letter. Why doesn't that answer your question?

As to the rest of your initial post, you seem surprised that not all Christians agreed on how to get saved. Although the view of Paul seems to have won the day it is clear that the writer of James would not have been in accord with Paul. As I pointed out the author of Matthew would not have a greed with Paul either.

As to this being a Jewish document, as one born educated and raised a Jew, although now secular, I can tell you that it is not. A debate in Judaism about whether salvation was by works or faith would be unthinkable. That debate makes sense only in the context of a movement that included Paul who posited his very un-Jewish view of the role of faith vs. the Law. This is clearly a Christian document written by someone who differs with Paul on that issue. He makes his case that faith without works is dead. That was a dispute among Christians, not among Jews.

Steve

show_no_mercy · 09-07-2010, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

show no mercy:

In the Title of your thread you asked if the Epistle Of James was a Christian letter. I simply said that the author identifies himself as a Christian in the opening sentence of the letter. Why doesn't that answer your question?

Maybe I should have written "is the epistle of James originally a Christian document". There are quite a few originally Jewish apocalypses and such that were edited by Christians... like the Didache, 4 Ezra, the Ascension of Isaiah, and others.

Juststeve · 09-07-2010, 12:42 PM

Didache is not an apocalypse, Jewish or otherwise. It appears to be in the nature of a community order used by early Jews converted to a form of Christianity which would be considered heretical today. It deals with matters of church governance, ritual and interestingly the evaluation of itinerant teachers. It looks to be the product of a Christian community much closer to the original Judaism than any I know of today but still Christian.

Steve

show_no_mercy · 09-07-2010, 01:13 PM

Forest, trees...

PhilosopherJay · 09-07-2010, 01:39 PM

Hi juststeve,

In regards to the statement "A debate in Judaism about whether salvation was by works or faith would be unthinkable," It is clear that the one and only Jewish philosopher that we have works by, Philo, from the First century, did think about it.

In "Concerning Noah's Work," Philo associates salvation with the specific actions (works) of Jacob:

Quote:

XXVI. (110) But we, even after we have been instructed, make no progress in learning; but some persons, having a self-taught natural instinct, purify what is good from the evils which surround it, as Jacob did, he who was surnamed the practicer of virtue; for he "peeled the rods, leaving on the white bark, having stripped off all the Green;"{23}{#ge 30:37.} in order that the dark and dusky vanity in the middle being taken away in every case, a white appearance might be displayed, which should be produced so as to be akin to it, not by diversified art but by nature;

Here is Philo, once again, talking about faith versus works in "On Husbandry"

Quote:

X. (41) These, then, are the occupations of shepherds who prefer those things which are useful, though mixed with unpleasantness, to those which are pleasant but pernicious. Thus, at all events, the occupation of a shepherd has come to be considered a respectable and profitable employment, so that the race of poets has been accustomed to call kings the shepherds of the people; but the law giver gives this title to the wise, who are the only real kings, for he represents them as rulers of all men of irrational passions, as of a flock of sheep. (42) On this account he has attributed to Jacob, the man who was made perfect by practice, a skill in the science of a shepherd, saying: "For he is the shepherd of Laban's Sheep."

In "Confusion of Tongues," Philo again refers once again to Jacob as somebody made perfect through practice (works):

Quote:

(181) the best of all beings should be the cause of all the best things, but that the punishments appointed for the wicked are inflicted by the means of his subordinate ministers.And there is an evidence in favour of this assertion of mine in this expression, which was uttered by the man who was made perfect by practice; "The God who nourished me from my youth up, the angel who defended me from all Evils;"{59}{#ge 48:16.} for by this words he already confesses that those genuine good things which nourish the souls which love virtue, are referred to God as their sole cause; but the fate of the wicked is, on the other hand, referred to the angels, and even they have not independent and absolute power of inflicting punishment, that this salutary nature may not afford an opportunity to any one of the things which tend to destruction.

Here is a Jew who not only discusses salvation from works ("practice") versus salvation from faith, but attributes to Jacob (AKA James) the idea that works (practice) can bring salvation.

This indicates that the OP is correct and the epistle was originally written by a Jew writing in the name of Jacob, the Jewish patriarch, on a Jewish subject that was associated with his character - faith through works (practice).

I think we can follow to line of reasoning and suggest that the original text of Paul's epistles incorporate Jewish works that argued against Philo's emphasis on practice. Paul, or the documents we call Paul, evidently started off as a devout Jew offering salvation at a cheap, bargain rate price - obedience (faith). In this he resembles the Zen Buddhists who also offered Buddhist salvation/enlightenment without work or hardship.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

show no mercy:

In the Title of your thread you asked if the Epistle Of James was a Christian letter. I simply said that the author identifies himself as a Christian in the opening sentence of the letter. Why doesn't that answer your question?

As to the rest of your initial post, you seem surprised that not all Christians agreed on how to get saved. Although the view of Paul seems to have won the day it is clear that the writer of James would not have been in accord with Paul. As I pointed out the author of Matthew would not have a greed with Paul either.

As to this being a Jewish document, as one born educated and raised a Jew, although now secular, I can tell you that it is not. A debate in Judaism about whether salvation was by works or faith would be unthinkable. That debate makes sense only in the context of a movement that included Paul who posited his very un-Jewish view of the role of faith vs. the Law. This is clearly a Christian document written by someone who differs with Paul on that issue. He makes his case that faith without works is dead. That was a dispute among Christians, not among Jews.

Steve

Juststeve · 09-07-2010, 01:51 PM

Jay:

Where in these three quotes does Philo contrast works with faith or even so much as suggest that faith could substitute for works? I don't see it. Do you?

All I see in these quotes is the oft stated proposition that one earns favor from God by avoiding evil and doing good works.

Steve

09-07-2010, 08:02 AM	#1
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Is the epistle of James in the NT a Christian letter? Reading this letter, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with any Christian specific subject matter. The two references to "Jesus Christ" are simply window dressing and don't add to the letter in any way. This letter is famous for being at odds with Paul's salvation scheme but even when James talks about salvation, it has nothing to do with Jesus, his death, the cross, or his resurrection: 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you Of course there are various places in James' epistle where he could have simply quoted Jesus but doesn't. Could this letter have originated as some sort of pseudegraphic letter written not by the James of Christianity, but intended to be the James who was the namesake of Israel?

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09-07-2010, 08:39 AM	#2
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Yes. The author describes himself in the opening verse as "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ". Seems pretty Christian to me. Is his theory of salvation them same as Paul's? No but then neither is that of the author of Matthew. Perhaps by the thread starter’s reasoning Matthew isn't a Christian gospel. Steve

09-07-2010, 10:52 AM	#5
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	show no mercy: In the Title of your thread you asked if the Epistle Of James was a Christian letter. I simply said that the author identifies himself as a Christian in the opening sentence of the letter. Why doesn't that answer your question? As to the rest of your initial post, you seem surprised that not all Christians agreed on how to get saved. Although the view of Paul seems to have won the day it is clear that the writer of James would not have been in accord with Paul. As I pointed out the author of Matthew would not have a greed with Paul either. As to this being a Jewish document, as one born educated and raised a Jew, although now secular, I can tell you that it is not. A debate in Judaism about whether salvation was by works or faith would be unthinkable. That debate makes sense only in the context of a movement that included Paul who posited his very un-Jewish view of the role of faith vs. the Law. This is clearly a Christian document written by someone who differs with Paul on that issue. He makes his case that faith without works is dead. That was a dispute among Christians, not among Jews. Steve

09-07-2010, 12:42 PM	#7
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Didache is not an apocalypse, Jewish or otherwise. It appears to be in the nature of a community order used by early Jews converted to a form of Christianity which would be considered heretical today. It deals with matters of church governance, ritual and interestingly the evaluation of itinerant teachers. It looks to be the product of a Christian community much closer to the original Judaism than any I know of today but still Christian. Steve

09-07-2010, 01:13 PM	#8
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Forest, trees...

09-07-2010, 01:51 PM	#10
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Jay: Where in these three quotes does Philo contrast works with faith or even so much as suggest that faith could substitute for works? I don't see it. Do you? All I see in these quotes is the oft stated proposition that one earns favor from God by avoiding evil and doing good works. Steve

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