steamer

I don't believe in the devil or demons either so as someone already mentioned it is a pretty poor argument for belief. I hear that the IPU and all of Santa's elves disbelieve in god, are you convinced now of his non-existence?

Truth and happiness have zero correlation that I can see. Many truths, poverty, starvation, disease, the non-existence of gods, etc. are unhappy ones.

Helpma, is your purpose in life the pursuit of heaven? You don't know that this place exists. There is no evidence of heaven anywhere, yet you live your life as if it does. Suppose god lives in hell? Would you still want to be with him? Why? It seems to me that heaven and paradise are goals for those selfishly seeking reward. I think if your god lived in hell then you would be stupid to follow him there. You are living your life chasing a carrot on a stick, is there some reason you are afraid not to? There is much more to life than this shallow, selfish and hedonistic reward-seeking you do.

I Love Jesus

Catholicism does not deny the existence of hell, but in a teaching called "invincible ignorance," it admits a possibility for atheists to be saved. And that is about as specific as it gets.

John A. Broussard

In fact, the True Church of Christ says that a really good atheist would have undergone the baptism of desire, have been a Catholic without realizing it, and would definitely go to heaven.

I Love Jesus

Not quite. As I said the Church is very vague on this matter, she simply says that it is possible God would save them. You are correct that baptism of desire is a key element here.

Mars Man

HI there HARUMI chan !! (if I may--'chan' is a cute form used in place of the word 'san' [honorific title] and can used for both female and male--though usually female. Harumi is a common Japanese female name)

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't worry at all. Descartes and neo-platonism were both wrong, and it looks like the older Hebrew writers had a more realistic understanding--the nephesh goes back to adamah (soul and body to earth and dirt) and ruach goes back to YHWH (breath/force of life to nature--although they didn't see it as nature). The writings of the first century (and possible very early 2nd too?) don't really talk about it so much--you have gehnnna--the garbage dump that was used for symbolism, you have hades, the understanding from Greek mythology that was used to give understanding in the minds of that direct and immediate audience, and then, of course, in Revelation, you have the second death type thing. . .

Now I will have to go home and look it up, but I do have a newspaper clipping about the Roman Catholic church's deciding that 'hell' was a state, rather than a place. I'll go dig that out when I get home.

Anyway, Harumi chan, don't worry !!

John A. Broussard

While you're at it, see if you can find out how many infallible statements have been made by the True Church of Christ. There are at least two, maybe as many as eighteen as far as I can find out, but I'd sure appreciate having an infallible list of infallible statements.

Which makes me wonder where, when and how was it decided that the pope can make infallible statements--and is there an infallible statement stating that the pope can make infallible statements.

For that matter, I can't even find an official statement which clearly delineates what current Catholic dogma consists of. Could you look that up, too?

Have fun with your research.

Helpmabob

Hi Steamer – Christ is the way to heaven. He is the way the truth and the life. At present, as one who has decided to put my trust in Christ, one of my aims is to make my ‘calling and election sure’: Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, [2 Peter 1:10]

That is certainly an unusual interpretation of the Bible. The God the Spirit has revealed to me is good and gracious beyond human measure. Whereas: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. [1 Corinthians 2:9,10]

I am not sure what rewards you think I am chasing. I get spiritual rewards in this life, and there are those promised in the verses above, but these are open to all who want them. I don’t see how you can rail against this – you either turn to God yourself and receive His love, or you do not believe at all, in which case, I am to be pitied or ridiculed perhaps?

I love Jesus - Further to this - there are plenty of examples of God having mercy on people in the Bible. The greatest of those is the sacrifice of His only begotten Son for all of us who don’t deserve such grace. If people prefer to hope that God will just have mercy, they may be lucky: But in your great mercy you did not put an end to them or abandon them, for you are a gracious and merciful God. [Nehemiah 9:31] But I wouldn’t ever encourage anyone to put his or her faith in a possibility, when there is something that can be relied on with certainty.

John A. Broussard

You must have missed this post, so I'm repeating it in hopes of having an answer from you.


Are you saying that we should believe what the devil believes because the devil can't be in error?

I'm looking forward to your answer.

Helpmabob

Sorry John, I must have missed your post. No, you can believe whatever you want, but the deveil Believes in God - that was the point.

JPD

So what is "the point" exactly? One imaginary entity "believes" in another. Please tell me that this isn't the extent of your argument because if it is it is very poor indeed. We can have all manner of imaginary beings believing and not believing all manner of imaginary entities but this doesn't provide any actual basis for an argument.