Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 02-11-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

It's not hilarious, you are misreading the prophecy regardless of your unsubstantiated claims and arguing the definition of the word they

Nope, I am not the one "misreading the prophecy". YOU are. As your source, Matthew Hogan, agreed.

Of course, you're still ignoring Nebby's failure to do what HE was specifically prophesied to do (including his failure to rampage down all of the streets of Tyre).

As usual the "failed prophecy" is based upon spinning a half truth that hebrew was no future tense, hence the many nations was not refering to Alexander the Great and all the other nations which rose like waves to attack Tyre.

Hebrew Tenses

sugarhitman · 02-11-2008, 09:56 AM

Critics love to post the Google map of Tyre. Ive discovered something quite revealing. The tour guides (or the written histories of various sites of Tyre posted at this map) says that Tyre was a double or two part city, one on the island the other on the mainland. You hear that a "Double city" or a city located on both the mainland and island (Type in the search engine mainland city and see what you get). Now watch how they will now rise up against the Google map Tour guides....watch.

sugarhitman · 02-11-2008, 10:12 AM

Tyre's ancient Aqueduct according to the sources I have read, were bronze pipes going from the mainland spring to to the island. The spring was south of the island city on the mainland. If anyone has any extensive information on this please share it with us. This may give us some idea as to where the ancient mainland city was located...Thank you.

makerowner · 02-11-2008, 10:14 AM

ENOUGH WITH THE TYRE THREADS ALREADY!!! :banghead:

arnoldo · 02-11-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

On the matter of the "many nations," Hogan said, "If Farrell can explain what Ezekiel meant when he wrote about the `many nations' that would come up against Tyre, then perhaps I would admit defeat." Well, I do have an explanation, which I consider far moresensible than the strained interpretation that Hogan has resorted to in an attempt to salvage this prophecy. This interpretation is based on the fact that the Hebrew language had no future tense. Thus, Ezekiel did not actually say, "I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you." Instead, he said, "I am against you, O Tyre, and have caused to come up against thee many nations" (Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible). In the absence of a future tense, which was characteristic of Semitic languages, future action was denoted by using the past tense, and in the introduction to his literal translation, Young discusses at length the controversy that this linguistic feature has generated among Bible translators ("Battle of the Hebrew Tenses," Revised Edition, Baker Book House).

The Romans, Greeks, and So Forth by Farrell Till

I guess this is the proof that Tyre is a failed prophecy

makerowner · 02-11-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics love to post the Google map of Tyre. Ive discovered something quite revealing. The tour guides (or the written histories of various sites of Tyre posted at this map) says that Tyre was a double or two part city, one on the island the other on the mainland. You hear that a "Double city" or a city located on both the mainland and island (Type in the search engine mainland city and see what you get). Now watch how they will now rise up against the Google map Tour guides....watch.

Even if this is true, Nebuchadrezzar still failed to destroy the city. The island is definitely at least a part of the city; even you admit that. You also admit that Nebuchadrezzar didn't destroy it. Therefore the prophecy fails.
You also failed to address the fact that Tyre was supposed to never be rebuilt. The satellite pictures clearly show that it has been, therefore the prophecy fails.

Sheshonq · 02-11-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

By the way If there were no other nations before Babylon building siege mounts against the island (Because it was not possible) then how was Nebby to do it?

You've never proven that it wasn't possible to have siege mounts. You've claimed it many times, but every time you get asked for proof you run like a scared rabbit. :rolling:

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And why does Jeremiah have Tyre serving Babylon instead of being destroyed by Babylon?

1. Nobody said the bible doesn't contradict itself.

2. Maybe because Jeremiah saw that Ezekiel's prophecy failed and decided not to make the same mistake that Ezekiel did.

3. Maybe Jeremiah was smarter and didn't go out on a limb. Ezekiel got ahead of himself and overshot the prophecy, necessitating the repair work done later in his book (i.e., God giving Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as payment for failing to conquer Tyre).

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he vs. they bullshit

This is really easy:

He = Nebuchadnezzar

They = elements of the Babylonian army under Nebuchadnezzar's command - horses, chariots, etc. all need the pronoun "they".

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And by the way you can post those photos of the island city all you want. Chapter 27, Isaiah and Jeremiah all have the insland city inhabited to the very end that will be broken by the seas. Can any of you post the Mainland city? Ofcourse you can't......because it isn't there. :wave:

1. There was no island city, only suburbs and colonies.

2. Isaiah and Jeremiah don't help you because Ezekiel's prophecy still predicted the downfall of the island. Result? Prophecy fails! :rolling:

Sheshonq · 02-11-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Please note there is no Island of Tyre which the Phoenicains built. The only thing the present day Tyre has in common with the mighty Island city/state built by the phoenicians is the name. Richmond, Virginia exists today, does that mean that the capital of the Confederacy continues to exist?

That particular busted analogy has already been shot down by Jack:

nobody prophesied the permanent destruction and depopulation of Richmond, as Ezekiel did with Tyre. If they DID: then THAT person would ALSO be a false prophet, just as Ezekiel was.

You can continue to use it, and we'll just keep shooting it down and showing the audience how stupid it is.

Quote:

Regardless the only failed prophecy exists in the imagination of the minimalists.

No, the failed prophecy exists in Ezekiel. You've had weeks to show otherwise, and have not done so.

Matthew Hogan's comments have been shredded by Farrell Till and others already.

sugarhitman · 02-11-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

By the way If there were no other nations before Babylon building siege mounts against the island (Because it was not possible) then how was Nebby to do it?

You've never proven that it wasn't possible.

1. Nobody said the bible doesn't contradict itself.

2. Maybe because Jeremiah saw that Ezekiel's prophecy failed and decided not to make the same mistake that Ezekiel did.

3. Maybe Jeremiah was smarter and didn't go out on a limb. Ezekiel got ahead of himself and overshot the prophecy, necessitating the repair work done later in his book (i.e., God giving Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as payment for failing to conquer Tyre).

This is really easy:

He = Nebuchadnezzar

They = elements of the Babylonian army under Nebuchadnezzar's command - horses, chariots, etc. all need the pronoun "they".

Quote:

And by the way you can post those photos of the island city all you want. Chapter 27, Isaiah and Jeremiah all have the insland city inhabited to the very end that will be broken by the seas. Can any of you post the Mainland city? Ofcourse you can't......because it isn't there. :wave:

1. There was no island city, only suburbs and colonies.

2. Isaiah and Jeremiah don't help you because Ezekiel's prophecy still predicted the downfall of the island. Result? Prophecy fails! :rolling:

1. Jeremiah's prophecy about Tyre was before Ezekiel's. Ezekiel's came 5 years after the Exile. Remember Tyre is here condemned by Zek because She rejoiced at Jerusalem's fall Jeremiah was warning Judah and Tyre that Nebby would come against them Jerusalem was not yet destroyed. (oops you got that one wrong)
2. The horses, chariots are listed under "His" not they (oops!)
3. The suburbs emerged after Alexander's siege.
4. Ezekiel say that God would destroy Tyre by bringing the sea over her, the nations dimineshed her.

arnoldo · 02-11-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Yet more desperate attempts to avoid the uncomfortable truth:

It was EZEKIEL who falsely "prophesied" the destruction of Tyre, not JEREMIAH (who was himself a false prophet, but for other reasons: Jeremiah "prophesied" the imminent destruction of BABYLON, not TYRE).

Classic diversionary tactics!

Already addressed. Ezekiel wasn't a military engineer, and he certainly wasn't a "prophet" either. He may have figured that this stuff would be taken across on barges, or that a causeway would be built (and, IIRC, some say that there was already a causeway of sorts, which the Tyrians later removed).

Still making stuff up? Ezekiel knew that Tyre was on the island, that's why he specifically did the very thing you're claiming he did NOT do. Ezekiel separates the mainland settlements from Tyre in his account, and describes Tyre itself as being a fortress on an island (in the midst of the sea, strong in the sea etc etc).

Repeating fabricated claims will not make them true. There is NO evidence that the mainland settlements had defensive walls: no historical evidence, no Biblical evidence (Joshua 19 says no such thing), and no archaeological evidence either (and this SHOULD exist if this claim had ever been true).
1 refers to the destruction of the mainland settlements. Everything after that was supposed to happen to TYRE ITSELF (the island). In particular, 5 is another outright fabrication, because the Bible says you're wrong (and I have pointed this out to you before). Nebby's forces FAILED to tread ALL the streets of TYRE.

False again. The "mainland city" still exists.

Again, already covered. The prophecy specifically refers to "walls" and "streets".

THIS NEVER HAPPENED.

...Except that (among other errors) ALEXANDER DID NOT DESTROY TYRE. Another inconvenient FACT that simply will not penetrate!

Still, the inconvenient FACT that Tyre made a complete recovery from Alexander WITHIN 2 DECADES, and later regained its POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE, is not penetrating!

And of course the "island of Tyre" does exist. It's now connected to the mainland, but the same land-mass still physically exists: and still bears the city of Tyre.

You are still circling around my questions.
1. Ezekiel knew that Nebby did not plunder Tyre, so is it possible that he changed He to They in verse 12 that begans with the plundering of Tyre, to seperate Nebby from They? Or did he go ahead to write anyway leaving the failed prophecy unchanged? (which makes no sense it all, prophets were very serious about their work).
2. And if Ezekiel was targeting the island only why would he have Nebby destroying it, then turn around in the same and next chapter saying Tyre and everything in it would be destroyed BY the sea?
3. Ezekiel wasnt an engineer? Come on all it takes is common sense to know you cannot build siege mounds in the sea, and chariots and horses and battering rams against an isalnd fortress with no land outside its walls is just stupid. There is ofcourse a clear hint of the causeway but that is listed under "They."
4. God says that Tyre would be completely DESOLATE WITHOUT INHABITANT when he brings the sea over Tyre in ch. 26. In ch. 27. How can a desolate city be inhabited by fishermen? How can you spread nets on top of a rock that is buried beneath the sea? (This shows that Tyre would be reduced to a fishing villege city or town with the mainland city gone where nets are spread on its former location until the last judgement. There is a clear seperation between verse 14 and 20. Verse 20 makes it clear that this desolation will not occur until the sea is brought over Tyre it also corrosponds to ch. 27:"IN THE TIME WHEN YOU SHALL BE BROKEN BY THE SEAS IN THE DEPTHS OF THE WATER....ALL YOUR COMPANY IN THE MIDST OF YOU SHALL FALL." and "ALL YOUR COMPANY...SHALL FALL INTO THE MIDST OF THE SEAS IN THE DAY OF YOUR RUIN." This is strong evidence that Tyre is destroyed by the sea not at the hands of any nation. The nations were only to reduce it to a fishing site. Verse14 ends the mainland city 15 begins with the island which ends in verse 20. Verse 14 and 20 are two different judgements against two locations....mainland and island Tyre.

Ive been trying to locate the spring water located on the mainland that was (is?) used as a source of water for both the mainland and island can anyone point this out on a map? Arnoldo?

Can you answer these my friend? And by the way that city of Sur on the mainland seems awfully far back from the coast...dont you think?

Here is a source that identifies the source of water, it takes a while to load so be patient. Protected Areas in Lebanon

02-11-2008, 09:56 AM	#52
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Google map of Tyre Critics love to post the Google map of Tyre. Ive discovered something quite revealing. The tour guides (or the written histories of various sites of Tyre posted at this map) says that Tyre was a double or two part city, one on the island the other on the mainland. You hear that a "Double city" or a city located on both the mainland and island (Type in the search engine mainland city and see what you get). Now watch how they will now rise up against the Google map Tour guides....watch.

02-11-2008, 10:12 AM	#53
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Tyre's ancient Aqueduct and mainland spring Tyre's ancient Aqueduct according to the sources I have read, were bronze pipes going from the mainland spring to to the island. The spring was south of the island city on the mainland. If anyone has any extensive information on this please share it with us. This may give us some idea as to where the ancient mainland city was located...Thank you.

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02-11-2008, 10:14 AM	#54
makerowner Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,962	ENOUGH WITH THE TYRE THREADS ALREADY!!! :banghead:

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