Freethought & Rationalism Archive

01-16-2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

Two things here. The first is that both examples you gave are very stylistically different, look at word placement.

Nope. They are stylistically identical. You don't get extra marks for ransdom word rearrangement. And I was not poisoning the well, I was pointing out the need for an objective neutral witness. I'm afraid you don't qualify. While I appreciate Lucretius's efforts, the fact remains he said six things in his post. The four we could test are now shown to be wrong. The two subjective matters that we could not test are all that remain.

As this is turning into four amateurs all arguing from their own agendas we will get nowhere and so I'll drop out unless something new turns up.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Lucretius · 01-16-2005, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

Nope. They are stylistically identical. You don't get extra marks for ransdom word rearrangement.

I am sorry, but word order is extremely important in stylistic analysis as you are probably well aware.
The fact that Tacitus has used the word Auctor before does not mean that any sentence using that word is automatically Tacitean in style .
By the way I am not a "Jesus Myther" I have no problem with a historic Jesus I only have a problem with his divine nature (obviously since I am an atheist

).

andrewcriddle · 01-16-2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucretius

Something I meant to say yesterday is that this sentence or even part of the sentence, if in fact it is an interpolation, need not necessarily be by an "imitator" of Tacitus.
There are very few of these interpolations that can be said to be deliberate insertions of text,the vast majority are Marginalia i.e notes that someone at a later date has written in the margins of the work in a similar way we might use a footnote to explain something further.
This can often be absorbed into the main part of the work mainly by scribes, who could not distinguish between the margin notes and the proper text.
In this case due to the extreme difference in style to Tacitus normal usage I would suggest that the possible "author" of the interpolation was merely writing in what he thought was good Latin,rather than trying to copy Tacitus' style, if it is an attempt at imitation in my opinion it fails spectacularly.

Quote:

auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat

is IMO more related in stylistic terms to the rest of the passage than one would expect of a marginal gloss.

Previously we have

Quote:

Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit

subsequently we have

Quote:

aut crucibus adfixi

We hence have first the perfect of adficio then the perfect participle passive of adficio then the perfect participle passive of the similar sounding word adfigo.

I don't regard this progression as accidental although it could possibly be deliberate by an imitater of Tacitus.

Andrew Criddle

Lucretius · 01-16-2005, 08:04 AM

I had noticed the usage of Adfexi,adfectus erat and adfixi
It could however be explained by the fact that the writer of the possible marginalia obviously would have had to read the passage before he wrote the marginal notes and either deliberately or subconciously used "adefectus erat"

Chris Weimer · 01-16-2005, 11:10 AM

I don't see that as a progression at all. How is he progressing?

andrewcriddle · 01-17-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

I don't see that as a progression at all. How is he progressing?

It starts with perfect tense of verb 1 then perfect participle passive of verb 1 then perfect participle passive of verb 2 which sounds very similar to verb 1.

Also there may be an underlying similarity of thought between what Christ suffered from Pilate

Quote:

supplicio adfectus erat

and what happened to his followers

Quote:

aut crucibus adfixi

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle · 01-17-2005, 09:22 AM

IMVHO I'm more impressed with the banality and dullness of the first clause referring to Christ than with the excessive alliteration in the second half. Tacitus does use quite a lot of alliteration sometimes when not obviously necessary for emphasis.

One possibility which I put forward very tentatively is that

Quote:

auctor nominis eius

is a marginal gloss which got into the text and the rest is original resulting in the following reading in context

Quote:

ergo abolendo rumori Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat. Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiablilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque

I'm not sure either that there is any interpolation at all or that it is limited to my suggestion, but as a gloss involving no attempt to imitate Tacitus it is IMO the most likely suggestion.

PhilosopherJay · 01-17-2005, 08:51 PM

Lucretius' post has really set me off studying this material. I believe I have reconstructed the original passage before the interpolation.

The important thing to note in the Tacitus passage is the assertion that the superstition started in Judea. A Christian would have said that Jesus Christ and Christianity started in Bethlehem or Nazareth. Therefore we may assume that this statement was part of the original text and not part of the interpolation. From this clue, and Tacitus’ belief that the Jewish religion was “tasteless and mean�? (History 5), we may furnish the original statement:

Quote:

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Jews by the populace. Jews suffered extreme penalties during the reign of Nero who sent the procurator Porcius Festus , and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired .

This hypothesis explains why the statement "procurator" is there. The Christian interpolator, perhaps Eusebius, or perhaps later than Eusebius (not earlier) did not know that Pilate was not a procurator.

Unfortunately, I am too tired at the moment to explain how I derived this reconstruction.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Chris Weimer · 01-18-2005, 12:05 AM

It would be interesting indeed to see how you arrived at this conclusion. Please go on!

Toto · 01-18-2005, 12:30 AM

I thought that Judaism had a certain status in the Roman Empire as a "religion", while other beliefs with less status were called "superstitions", so i don't see how this could have referred to the Jews.

On the other hand, Tacitus did write this about the Jews:

Quote:

This worship, however introduced, is upheld by its antiquity; all their other customs, which are at once perverse and disgusting, owe their strength to their very badness. The most degraded out of other races, scorning their national beliefs, brought to them their contributions and presents. This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to shew compassion, though they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies. They sit apart at meals, they sleep apart, and though, as a nation, they are singularly prone to lust, they abstain from intercourse with foreign women; among themselves nothing is unlawful.

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01-16-2005, 08:04 AM	#64
Lucretius Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: . Posts: 1,014	I had noticed the usage of Adfexi,adfectus erat and adfixi It could however be explained by the fact that the writer of the possible marginalia obviously would have had to read the passage before he wrote the marginal notes and either deliberately or subconciously used "adefectus erat"

01-16-2005, 11:10 AM	#65
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	I don't see that as a progression at all. How is he progressing?

01-18-2005, 12:05 AM	#69
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	It would be interesting indeed to see how you arrived at this conclusion. Please go on!

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